The Gardens cafe - NOT baby friendly

[Jessie]

I enjoyed this blog: http://www.newstatesman.com/lifestyle/2012/10/my-new-campaign-feminists-yummy-mummies

Women - mothers! - can't really win, whoever we are, whichever strata of society we come from

[Otta]

I don't think they are a lazy construct, and I have seem them around the place.

What gets me is words like discrimination, like it's your (no one imparticular) human right to sit and have a coffee with your mates.

Perspective required. As has already been said, there are plenty of other places around so why not just go there and worry about something that is actually important.

[eco79]

Our babies were titchy wee and quite definitely too young for strollers.

[Bouncy]

I agree that there is an argument that the word 'discrimination' itself has connotations beyond those intended here, and perhaps was ill-used (though I also think there's an argument that its use was semantically accurate).

However, having been in a similar situation (in a different cafe) with a friend who (in a shaky state, like many of us when our babies are young) was knocked off the end of her tether and into tears by treatment akin to that described above, I don't think calls for 'perspective' which belittle the experience of the original poster and the effect this kind of treatment can have are justified. We're humans living in a close society together; actions like this (however admittedly minor compared to war, famine, and any other polarising example you can think of!) do have an impact on people. Why try to trivialise people's experiences and feelings?

If you don't think this issue is worth worrying about, perhaps don't read and contribute to this thread?! (Having said that, I'd be interested to hear concrete descriptions of how the observed entitled examples enact their entitlement!)

[midivydale]

Eco79 - "Exactly my point laney1. It doesn't hugely matter if I'm a trumped up, self-entitled mother with a pram the size of a citroen C5 [someone, jump in here to say I'm not"

You are not;)

[NorthcrossJo]

Places that aren't friendly to buggies are also unlikely (in my experience) to be friendly to wheelchairs, so I'm sorry to hear that there are places locally that have made mothers with buggies/prams feel unwelcome. There have been times when I've struggled to get around the many prams in various local shops/cafes, but generally the pram-owners have been more than happy to move them to help me get past... I'll stick to the Actress, the Palmerston and Pretty's!

[LondonMix]

Sorry but the very use of the word discriminate suggests an entitlement complex. My partner read that over my shoulder and groaned without having seen the protracted discussion that followed. The restaurant was not accommodating, which may or may not be a bad business decision. The term discriminate shows a total lack of perspective.

[Otta]

Thank you to you and your obviously wise partner!

[eco79]

Cheers midivydale *stops sweating profusely with anxiety*

[oimissus]

I'm with Otta too; yes, the owner doesn't like prams and that probably a bad business decision, but it's his decision to make. It's a pity, but it's hardly like there's a dearth of places to go with your pram round here. And the OP managed to have a lovely time practically NEXT DOOR!

Also, a pram isn't essential with small children - babies can go in slings, toddlers can walk. Of course, that's not always convenient, but it's just not true to say that you HAVE to have a pram with you when you're out and about.

[LondonMix]

That's really the point oimissus. We selected ED because its is so accommodating to young families. However, when making decisions about what products are best we all need to consider what is convenient for our lifestyles. If you rely on public transport you have to think about if the pram you like can fit on the bus and if it can easily fold down. If you enjoy travelling, you need to think about what can be accommodated on planes (if you can still afford to travel :)). If you enjoy going to cafes, you need to think about what will fit in a typical shop without potentially inconveniencing the owner and other customers by limiting the number of people that can be served or creating an unsafe environment. There use to be a time when people made decisions about what was best considering not only what was convenient for them but also what was convenient for the wider community they would be interacting with.

Lot's of stores around here are thankfully very accommodating because they are targeting young families and its no crime to have a massive pram. However, the complaints about "entitlement" come up when it appears that no thought has been given to how your choices might impact others.

[civilservant]

Actually I don't think it is a bad business decision.

Cafes cater for people of all ages and the buying power of mums with babies/prams is limited compared to that of other patrons. If the Gardens becomes known as a baby-free zone, that would be attractive to all the people who regularly complain on here about having to share their space with babies.

Speaking as a one-time baby sling user who graduated to a fold-up Maclaren, I think that London Mix makes a valid point about thinking about how one's choices impact on the rest of society, including cafe owenrs

[midivydale]

Of course it his decision, he has just on several occasions been very rude about it, which in my opinion is uncalled for. Especially when you have been a good, well paying customer. I have lived baby free in ED for 10yrs and love the fact that there are baby and non baby establishments in the area. Thats great.

It is most def his/her decision and one that should be respected. It is just a shame when that decision is rudely put across to very loyal customers.

I would have loved to have a sling baby- sadly that wasnt an option for me, nor is it for my friend with newborn twins.

For some prams are a must.

I am at homemade every single day with a pram. Everyone who has been know the place is tiny, i do my best to ensure my pram is not in the way and staff have never ever made me feel anything but welcome. In turn i dont go there at times when i know they are very busy, to ensure that i am not in the way.

I have the utmost respect for any revenue generating business in this climate and never ever assume that my pushchair us welcome.

I dont have an issue at all with business owners not wanting prams- my issue is being treated with rudeness.

Spring babies have found a new venue & we are very happy there.

[The Nappy Lady]

I know The Gardens hosts business networking meetings so it sounds like he's trying to encourage that sort of client more. I do recall years ago a cafe owner (acquaintance) saying that whilst he welcomes Mums & buggies they would often take up many seats for a couple of hours whilst only ordering a coffee & cake - not good for business...I'd never really considered that before & it did make me a bit more self aware when I was lurking around the area on maternity leave!

I think my main issue is that the owner could easily put a sign up explaining their policy - eg "Sorry, no buggys" etc and then everyone would know where they stand & these upsetting experiences would cease.

As others have said its the owners decision but what a shame he's handling it so badly.

[LondonMix]

Yes, being rude is never called for. I've also found the service patchy and prefer the food at other places.

[civilservant]

Agree that rudeness is never ok.

But must say that though service might be patchy, it's still better than the place on the Rye (which is dirty, has squalid toilets and dishes up appalling food. Are those butties actually edible?). A pity, given its excellent building and location.

[zeban]

The Nappy Lady Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I do recall

> years ago a cafe owner (acquaintance) saying that

> whilst he welcomes Mums & buggies they would often

> take up many seats for a couple of hours whilst

> only ordering a coffee & cake - not good for

> business...I'd never really considered that before

> & it did make me a bit more self aware when I was

> lurking around the area on maternity leave!

>

To be honest, this is very true. Unfortunately Mums and buggies are not very lucrative as really do mostly (not always) go into cafes just for coffee and possibly a cake and may stay for quite a long period of time. So cafes can't really afford for them to take up two tables at a busy time- breakfast or lunchtime, or if it's a really small establishment. However, the Gardens whilst quite small inside has a large outside and if not busy I really don't see the problem with prams or taking two tables. There's absolutely no need for rudeness or attitude from the manager.

Do agree with civilservant and LondonMix about thinking about how your choices impact on society.

Funnily enough, I had an awful experience with an entitled DAD the other day who brought a buggy with a child in on the bus and then asked me to get up from the seats next to the area for buggies/wheelchairs so he could sit down!!!! I completely refused and although he continued to try to bully me out of the seat I stood firm and eventually all of the other passengers came to my defense and called this guy up about his entitled behaviour. He tried to claim the seats were for people like him, I pointed out that they are for elderly, those less able to stand, pregnant women (which I could have been one), and for parents with young children who they need to seat on their laps. He said 'when you have children you will want to look after them!'- patronising enough as he clearly thought I was 16 when I'm actually almost 30 and could have had 5 kids at home! He was a complete bully who just chose me because I looked like an easy target-there was an older woman next to me and he didn't ask her to move and she was in no way 'old'. I said 'you can look after your child and stand up at the same time! '. You'ld never get a Mum acting in such a way IMO. That's really the only self entitled parent I've come across before, besides a few SW mums in Clapham in their SUVs!

[Otta]

Hurrah for Molly!

[Saffron]

The Nappy Lady Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I know The Gardens hosts business networking

> meetings so it sounds like he's trying to

> encourage that sort of client more. I do recall

> years ago a cafe owner (acquaintance) saying that

> whilst he welcomes Mums & buggies they would often

> take up many seats for a couple of hours whilst

> only ordering a coffee & cake - not good for

> business...I'd never really considered that before

> & it did make me a bit more self aware when I was

> lurking around the area on maternity leave!

So, they could just be asked to move the buggies, nicely, if that's the case. Although I've seen plenty of people with laptop computers and newspapers taking up seats with just a coffee... It's more about timing, as I see it, and whether the place is otherwise busy or not. Because if the place is empty otherwise, then having mothers with small babies, taking up tables with just cake and coffee is still better than having no one in there at all. And I really cannot believe that people want their buggies to annoy others and get in the way. It's just not always as easy as saying you can leave a buggy at home. Thay may be the case for a lot of people, but it's not the case for everyone.

>

> I think my main issue is that the owner could

> easily put a sign up explaining their policy - eg

> "Sorry, no buggys" etc and then everyone would

> know where they stand & these upsetting

> experiences would cease.

Yes, a sign would be great. They wouldn't even have to totally disallow prams. Eg, "2 buggies only during busy times", or "please fold all buggies when seated".

>

> As others have said its the owners decision but

> what a shame he's handling it so badly.

Yes, very badly handled. It's very confusing because The Gardens was initially very baby/child friendly. Why the change? I do think there are ways to accomodate different customer types in the same space. The Brockley Mess (SE4) seems to be doing a better job of managing mixed customers, in less space, with better service -- they're always busy! It can be done!!

[Otta]

Perhaps we should be saying "not BUGGY friendly" rather accusing them of being not baby friendly.

[LondonMix]

Saffron, I agree only a sociopath would want their buggy to annoy someone. There is a difference between actively wanting to annoy someone and doing something you genuinely find convenient without considering /caring if it will annoy and inconvenience others though (which everyone is guilty of sometimes).

The family trade being better than having no one is a chicken and egg kind of question. People go to coffee shops to relax and an establishment filled with small children and babies doesn?t give off a relaxing vibe to the childless. Only families might currently go there because they are putting off other users. A place doesn?t need to be full with babies either before it starts to give off the feel of a cr?che. Not sure how large the non-baby demographic is in ED but there do seem to be a lot of writers, literary agents, musicians etc in the area so who knows.

[Otta]

I really cannot believe that people want their buggies to annoy others and get in the way

Indeed, I don't think anyone would imagine that people are going out thinking "who can I annoy today". I think people just don't think about other people sometimes. I am sure I don't always consider how my actions are effecting everyone around me.

If a person goes through life considering how each and everything they do will affect everyone eose, then they are a better person than I am.

I just don't think that person exists though*

*The person I describe, not "a better person than I", as they are 10 a penny)

[simonethebeaver]

For what it's worth, I never felt welcome in there with my baby and I used a sling most of the time. I've avoided it for months, particularly since the deli arrived in the back room (surely in no one's definition of a 'community space' as it's a shop) because it has endless things for my child to pick up and I couldn't relax for a second.

[eco79]

A cup of tea if ?2.40! Normal tea.....as in a teabag, hot water, and a splash of milk?!?!

[Otta]

That's the Dulwich price.