The Gardens cafe - NOT baby friendly

[nubby'smums]

Just wanted to warn others about how rude staff are in this cafe to people with buggies. We wanted to go for lunch and were stopped, rather than greeted at the door and asked if we just wanted to see the drinks menu. We wanted to put a couple of tables together to accommodate our group and they wouldn't let us, despite it being quiet and there being plenty of room. When we challenged them about being so unwelcoming and talked to the manager about how rude the staff member was, he took her side and asked us to leave! Our children were so quiet and well behaved, I just don't understand what their problem was. There was plenty of room for the buggies and we put them well out of the way. The worst thing about it was that it was my birthday and I was so upset at being so blatantly discriminated against. Still getting over it as it totally ruined my day. On the up side, we went to the Clock House straight afterwards and they couldn't have been more different. We had a lovely meal and they were super friendly, as were the other customers. I find it baffling that in East Dulwich, which is baby central, business owners would turn such customers away. I know some people find children annoying but ours were so well behaved and quiet. Anyone else had this experience there?

[Saffron]

Particularly baffling as the Clock House is not generally known for being child friendly!

Opinions have been very divided about The Gardens cafe in the past. There was a long thread on it somewhere...

[Strawbs]

I can't stand the place and avoid like the plague.. Try the dish and spoon, very child friendly x

[SR]

Fair few articles in the guardian about pesky yummy mummies recently. Apparently if you have a pram you are a self entitled madam spending hubbies bonus....

[Helen GV]

Oh I WISH

[midivydale]

Awful terrible place. Haven been back since i got asked if i "expected the red carpet" by staff when i ASKED v politely if i could move a table slightly to accomodate pram. May i add that this was outside and i was the only customer. I only asked so that ds would be safely out of the sun ( since they dont provide sun umbrellas).

Awful awful awful place

[reren]

Makes me so sad - i spent much of my maternity leave happily ensconsed in the gardens - it had just opened and was a favourite place - i felt so warm about it until they removed the childrens room and made it clear tht kids were not welcome. i guess they decided that groups of mums and lots of kids was putting off other customers (which im sure it did) - but it does seem odd to me that they have taken such an antimum stand...are there that many other people at home during the day and happy to while away a couple of hours and multiple cappuccinos and cakes...i now pretty much avoid the place - even when im on my own and very well behaved! Posts like this make me even less likely to go.

[Saffron]

Parent and toddler flashmob, anyone?

But seriously, I thought they had some kind of remit in their original planning permission, stating that they were providing some kind of community space? There were many planning applications before the Gardens that were refused. The Gardens seemed to be ok at first. How did they go so wrong?

[supergolden88]

when I complained about this place yonks ago fair few jumped to the defence. Not so anymore I see. I haven't been back since

[civilservant]

A vote FOR the Gardens - they are older-child-friendly and also dog-friendly.

Buggy-friendly unfortunately doesn't make economic sense - see what's happened to the Mag and to the Blue Mountain Cafe

[Saffron]

And older-child / dog-friendly does make sense, because lots of older children and dogs eat lunch there and take afternoon tea with cakes on a weekday?

Hmmmm, not sure about that.

Success in the cafe/restaurant industry is about knowing your customer base and catering for them. The Gardens seems to be suffering an identity crisis in this case. Who exactly IS their customer base? Half the time when I walk past them, they're half empty. What a shame, as they have such a nice location.

[Pickle]

I'm in two minds about this cafe - since having #3 I've been quite often, but generally it's just me and her (with our small buggy). My main gripe is that they take so long to serve you... last time I went it was pretty quiet, just a couple of tables, I ordered a coffee and cake at the counter before I sat down, and it took over 20 minutes to arrive.

I love the space, and think the cafe has a nice feel to it, but wish they would speed up the service a little.

[eco79]

On the buggy front, the last time they challenged us about the prams we all jumped up to fold prams/put them in the garden etc, and the owner said....no, no, no I don't want you to do that, but you need to think about these prams. We didn't know what he was on about as we were trying to fix things.

Also to point out, this was a pre-arranged group, who had asked the staff to use the back room on a Tuesday morning for coffee with our [then] tiny babies.

We stopped going.

[Saffron]

The cafe on P Rye Common does a better job at managing buggies. They just matter-of-factly ask customers to put prams outside when it's busy. They're neither unkind nor patronising about it. The Gardens seems to have plenty of outdoor space for prams. I don't see why they can't do the same. They seem to be a bit adrift on the topic, not really knowing what to do. Again, it comes back to understanding your client base, surely? I hope they work something out in this respect, because the times I've been in there, the food and drink has always been really nice.

[Otta]

"The worst thing about it was that it was my birthday and I was so upset at being so blatantly discriminated against. Still getting over it as it totally ruined my day. On the up side, we went to the Clock House straight afterwards and they couldn't have been more different. We had a lovely meal and they were super friendly, as were the other customers."

So hang on, did it actually totally ruin your day, to the point you are still getting over it, or did you actually go on and have a lovely time, thus your day wasn't ruined? Lets be clear here, because using words like "discriminated" is pretty serious.

and the owner said....no, no, no I don't want you to do that, but you need to think about these prams.

Perhaps he meant you need to think about which pram you are taking to particular places. Some buggies are very big, and if you're going to a place with tight spaces they are going to be an issue, whereas a stroller wouldn't be such a big deal.

Being rude to customers is not excusable (unless they deserve it), but he has a right to his opinion, and it sounds like his opinion is somehing along the lines of "why do people need these huge tank like prams".

I have no personal opinion on this place, and it does sound like he has been a bit short with people, but equally, he could have been wound up. Like it or not, there ARE mothers (and fathers) out there with a massive sense of entitlement. "I have child, the world must cater to me because I am a mother". Bollocks!

I am not saying ANYONE on this thread is one of these mothers, but a couple of run ins with this type of person would quite easily colour a business owner's perspective towards mums with buggies.

[laney1]

The Gardens has so little going for it anyway - totally overpriced, ridiculously long waits for food and drink and a hostile manager (I was actually about to go in with my friend and our buggies and saw the above incident occur). People should vote with their wallets, there are plenty of lovely child friendly cafe's around that do not discriminate. It's not as if the Gardens is in the heart of the city with hundreds of office workers clamouring for tables - we ARE their bread and butter!

[eco79]

Exactly my point laney1. It doesn't hugely matter if I'm a trumped up, self-entitled mother with a pram the size of a citroen C5 [someone, jump in here to say I'm not :)], but I enjoy having a coffee and talking to my friends on a weekday morning. If I can't do that at the Gardens then I'll go somewhere else.

He lost weekly business from a large group of mums that day. And if he's ok with that, then the place we go to now is making a roaring trade.

[Otta]

FFS please stop using words like discriminate, no one has been discriminated against, and to claim otherwise is an insult to those that suffer real discrimination.

I agree that he risks alienating his most profitable customer base, but that is his look out.

Regarding the point about it being granted a license on the basis it would be a community space, one person's vision of a community space may differ greatly from another's. It's a term so broad that it's effectively useless.

[laney1]

Otta - I am certainly not using the word 'discriminate' to imply we are suffering from some great miscarriage of justice when people don't want buggies around but it IS a form of discrimination to refuse to serve people with small children. Buggies are a neccessity to transport said small children around. I can only speak for myself but I would much rather not have to have one and have my baby magically walk from birth but that isn't happening. Therefore people could be a bit nicer about them as we are not all crazed power mothers with a sense of entitlement.

[Chillaxed]

Used to semi-regularly go to the Gardens (when Homemade was full) and never had an issue with the buggy (I'm gonna say it's medium sized, though can take up the space of a small car once the shopping, winter coats, etc are perilously balanced on it). Seems things have changed.

For mine, there are loads of cafes in ED that cater for parents so if one or two give me the impression we're not welcome, I'll go elsewhere. Thanks heavens we live in ED where that's an option; in a lot of 'hoods I've lived in there were only one or two cafes to choose from, whereas in ED there's at least a thousand.

Also, what's wrong with the word 'discriminate'? I don't think it necessarily implies a great social injustice, just that a certain section of society i.e. parents/carers with buggies are being judged on that fact alone, rather than on their individual merit. That is, they?re assumed to be a parent with a massive sense of entitlement rather than one who squeezes their buggy into the corner and heads for the door with said buggy as soon as their little one makes a peep.

[Saffron]

Otta Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> and the owner said....no, no, no I don't want you

> to do that, but you need to think about these

> prams.

>

> Perhaps he meant you need to think about which

> pram you are taking to particular places. Some

> buggies are very big, and if you're going to a

> place with tight spaces they are going to be an

> issue, whereas a stroller wouldn't be such a big

> deal.

Because we all obviously have multiple prams at our disposale for any given event?

In which case, we purposefully choose the one that will annoy people the most?

I think not.

[Otta]

I don't know what you have at your disposal. I didn't think it was particularly unusual for people to have a bigger buggy and a small stroller (which can be very cheap if you're not fussed about the name).

"In which case, we purposefully choose the one that will annoy people the most? "

Erm, where the Hell is this from?

[Saffron]

Irony: The expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect.

;-)

Of course people don't chose a buggy that will annoy others! You take the thing you can best get along in, so the idea that people need to "think" about their prams is a bit silly. I would have found that comment by the owner very patronising if it had been said to me.

Erm, what the Hell are we supposed to "think" about our prams?

[Saffron]

But come to think of it, maybe I will take my most annoying buggy from my vast shed of hundreds of buggies (similar to woodrot's shed of cats, though prams obviously aren't carnivorous) from now on just to give cafe owners a hard time. Muhahahahaa.

[Bouncy]

I've never actually met one of these self-entitled parents, except in the imaginations of people who write opinion pieces for newspapers. Are they really so prevalent? Or are they just a convenient (lazy) construct?