Butcher near Sainsbury's - Lordship Lane

[rspcalondonsoutheast]

Bellenden Belle Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It's the same person although that conviction was

> overturned when an expert vet showed there was a

> lack of evidence of cruelty. It even featured in a

> bbc documentary about over zealous RSPCA

> prosecutions. Nonetheless, there are many claims

> in their case that each individual should be aware

> of.

>

> The hygiene issue is a littl more concerning

> though I've never had any problems with te quality

> or freshness of his meat.

There is no such thing as an over zealous RSPCA prosecution.

[KidKruger]

Got some lovely chicken from butchers near plough today, plus eggs and goose fat for roasties.

I'd recommend it after almost 2 years going there.

[ken78]

you know that all this THING about health ratings, some time they let the business owners know when due for a visit. and they have a good clean up. and if you can remember years ago NO DATES ON MEAT,VEG,FISH,and now its all gone tits up.ie if you buy a pint of milk thats in date and its off is it ok to drink it? THE DATE SAYS IT IS ? now if you have a pint of milk in your fridge and its out of date but it taste ok what you do drink it or throw it away,if you go in a supermarket everything has a date [sELL BY ,USE BY,BEST BEFORE,}but go in to a independent, butchers,bakers,greengrocers,fishmongers,NO DATES,so if you like a shop ie the Butcher near Sainsbury's - Lordship Lane use him and dont worry about all this health ratings thing.

[KidKruger]

That's the one Ken.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

The health and hygiene rating is far more than that Ken, it's not just about dates , that is a tiny part of it .

[KidKruger]

Could someone please clarify exactly what they are accusing (or 'implying') the butcher is guilty of ?

Are you saying his shop is filthy and don't go there ?

Are you warning potential customers of some other threat to their safety ?

Are you suggesting he's been cruel to animals/livestock ?

Your comments are easily and cheaply made, but the consequences for his business are potentially very serious.

If all customers stopped going because of your comments would that be ok ?

He's running a licensed business as far as I know.

Please be very specific now about what your complaint regarding his operation today is.

[ken78]

so DulwichBorn&Bred do you know any thing about this health and hygiene rating ?? if so tells us all

[ken78]

KidKruger this is about some people{ Whittler,DulwichBorn&Bred WHO AS SAYS IS IN THE POST {I can't confirm it's the same person but a coincidence given the name and shop location ?} JUST THINK IF DulwichBorn&Bred WAS A JUDGE what way to talk about some one,GIVE THE MAN A CHANCE , looks like he's doing a good job, and DulwichBorn&Bred as you said in your post

"You get what you pay for" come on only a fool say this just look at the price FOR THE SAME MAKE in the supermarkets AND

YOU SAY THAT more fool you,

[dulwichgal]

yes i agree with you i am confused about what people are trying to imply

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

I am not going to bother argue with anyone on here as We all have freedom of choice to shop where we like and that is how it should be .

We are also lucky that with the internet we can research businesses, ratings and preview recommendations as sometimes things aren't always as we think and that goes for supermarkets and independent shops because as I said before I was disappointed to find out the chicken fillets I used to buy from William Rose wasn't as organic/free range as I presumed so now I know not to take things as face value , I make a more conscious effort of researching what I buy and I buy mostly Paleo meat boxes whereby the animals are 100 percent grass fed plus organic and free range ( though chicken can't be fed grass solely as that isn't their natural diet ) , thus I know the animals are the top range of welfare care but obviously it's not going to be at a bargain price . We all have different needs when we purchase things and as a result the butchers and most around here don't suit my needs . Take it as you will.

I replied to Ken as he seems to think judging by his comments a business can score a 1 purely on not having dates on food . This is incorrect . The business is scored on the whole.

I follow a Paleo diet Ken so supermarkets aren't place I frequent to buy my goods .

[ken78]

DulwichBorn&Bred DID YOU NOT READ WHAT I SAID "you know that all this THING about health ratings, some time they let the business owners know when due for a visit and they have a good clean up". AND AS I HAVE ALL THE "health and hygiene certificates" I DO KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT,unlike some some people IE DulwichBorn&Bred AND YOU STILL NEVER ANSWERED US ABOUT AS YOU SAY IN YOUR POST "The health and hygiene rating is far more than that Ken, it's not just about dates , that is a tiny part of it" WELL WHAT IS ALL ABOUT THEN AS YOU SEEM TO KNOW ??? BUT I DON'T THINK YOU WILL ANSWER THIS POST ANY MORE

BUT SAY A TRADER IS NO GOOD IS BAD

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

Anyone checking the ratings can find all the information , I have copied and pasted for you . Knock yourself out .

It's not just dates on food.

A food safety officer from the local authority where the business is located inspects a business to check that it meets the requirements of food hygiene law. The officer will check:

* how hygienically the food is handled ? how it is prepared, cooked, re-heated, cooled and stored

* the condition of the structure of the buildings ? the cleanliness, layout, lighting, ventilation and other facilities

* how the business manages and records what it does to make sure food is safe

The hygiene standards are then rated on a scale of 0 - 5 where 5 is highest.

A: The scores are calculated based upon the National Code of practice. The three scores achieved by the component scores are mapped onto an overall FHRS rating.

You can download the full Brand Guidance document which explains the detailed calculations here: http://www.food.gov.uk/enforcement/enfcomm/fhrssteeringgroup/hygieneratingsguidance/#.UO_Pb

A: As well as the overall rating, you will see that for most businesses these are broken down further into the three components:

Structural compliance

The structure of the establishment (including cleanliness, layout, condition of structure, lighting, ventilation, facilities etc.).

The meanings of the scores are as follows:

Very Good = High standard of compliance with statutory obligations and industry codes of recommended practice; conforms to accepted good practices in the trade.

Good = High standard of compliance with statutory obligations and industry codes of recommended practice, minor contraventions of food hygiene regulations. Some minor non-compliance with statutory obligations and industry codes of recommended practice.

Fair = Some non-compliance with statutory obligations and industry codes of recommended practice. The premises are in the top 50 per cent of premises and standards are being maintained or improved.

Poor = Some major non-compliance with statutory obligations ? more effort required to prevent fall in standards.

Bad = General failure to satisfy statutory obligations ? standards generally low.

Very Bad = Almost total non-compliance with statutory obligations.

Food Hygiene and Safety

The food hygiene and safety procedures (including food handling practices and procedures, and temperature control), and, are assessed using the scoring system below:

Very Good = High standard of compliance with statutory obligations and industry codes of recommended practice; conforms to accepted good practices in the trade.

Good = High standard of compliance with statutory obligations and industry codes of recommended practice, minor contraventions of food hygiene regulations. Some minor non-compliance with statutory obligations and industry codes of recommended practice.

Fair = Some non-compliance with statutory obligations and industry codes of recommended practice. The premises are in the top 50 per cent of premises and standards are being maintained or improved.

Poor = Some major non-compliance with statutory obligations ? more effort required to prevent fall in standards.

Bad = General failure to satisfy statutory obligations ? standards generally low.

Confidence in Management

The actual performance of management is scored in on the basis of the results achieved and observed. A management that achieves good food hygiene performance, well understood by the workforce, should have achieved a good score.

Confidence in management is not meant to reconsider this aspect. It is to elicit a judgement on the likelihood of satisfactory compliance being maintained in the future.

Factors that will influence the inspector's judgement include:

- the "track record" of the company, its willingness to act on previous advice and enforcement, and the complaint history;

- the attitude of the present management towards hygiene and food safety; and

- hygiene and food safety technical knowledge available to the company (internal or external), including hazard analysis/HACCP and the control of critical points;

- satisfactory HACCP based procedures.

The meanings of the scores are as follows:

High = Good record of compliance. Access to technical advice within organisation. Will have satisfactory documented HACCP based food safety management system which may be subject to external audit process. Audit by Food Authority confirms compliance with documented management system with few/minor non-conformities not identified in the system as critical control points.

Good = Reasonable record of compliance. Technical advice available in-house or access to and use of technical advice from trade associations. Have satisfactory documented procedures and systems. Able to demonstrate effective control of hazards. Will have satisfactory documented food safety management system. Audit by Food Authority confirms general compliance with documented system.

Some = Satisfactory record of compliance. Access to and use of technical advice either in-house or from trade associations. May have satisfactory documented food safety management system.

Little = Varying record of compliance. Poor appreciation of hazards and control measures. No food safety management system.

No confidence = Poor track record of compliance. Little or no technical knowledge.

Little or no appreciation of hazards or quality control. No food

safety management system.

[KidKruger]

Lazy response IMO.

You seem to go take some effort, re-posting, to bring the name of the butchers shop into disripute with no actual accusation.

I asked:

Are you saying his shop is filthy and don't go there ?

Are you warning potential customers of some other threat to their safety ?

Are you suggesting he's been cruel to animals/livestock ?

Please be very SPECIFIC now about what your complaint regarding his operation today is.

You replied:

"I am not going to bother argue with anyone on here", and

"Anyone checking the ratings can find all the information"

There's no argument to be had unless you state your grievance with the shop. I don't understand your motive if you've no specific facts (rather than cut/paste from a website).

Having been buying meat and other produce for some time from this place, as a customer I am interested to know why you think it is inadvisable to do so - especially as I'm knocking-out some decent grub based on products from there.

[spider69]

If you don't like this shop DONT USE IT

I hope those who like it continue to use it and tell others. The world does nor revolve round Roses.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

KK,

If you have an issue with his recent 1 star rating take it up with the Authority . I am not the officer who conducted the inspection , that is his score on the door and I never made any comments saying that I personally thought his place was 'filthy' or that he is 'Bad' .

And as he doesn't have a shop name I was very curious as to who the trader was and where his meats are from as I have always found it quite bizarre that there isn't a signage , to me that doesn't entice customers so I googled his name and the RSPCA reports came up with his name search . I didn't know if it was the same person as it seems strange being prosecuted for something ( it was 2007 so not recent) and still working in that field albeit in a different form .

I personally wouldn't shop there as I didn't like the mince, and it doesn't appeal to me , that is my personal choice . As I said , I buy a meat box delivery from a company that does 100 percent grass fed meats and so on and that is hard to obtain locally . Either way , nothing I have said would stop his devoted customers from going there as I just posted what is already online .

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

Happy for you to quote anything I personally said that sounds like I have a 'grievance' against Craig.

I don't , only met him once to get mince , didn't like the taste and never went back .

I also commented earlier in the thread if he did grass fed meats in case his products have expanded ( saves me ordering online ) but decided just to google and see if I could find any information about his products , shop name etc myself and that was all I could find .

I am the type of person that needs to know what , where and who when it comes to my food .

[KidKruger]

"nothing I have said would stop his devoted customers from going there as I just posted what is already online"

Why do you know that to be true ? I don't believe you spent a second thinking about the consequences of your posts.

A very weak cop-out reply for what is nothing short of malicious intent against that business.

The excuse you use that "it's on-line already" is pathetic.

Again, I question your motive. However, having read your replies and what you are trying to convince yourself is your justification, it would appear you just behaved stupidly.

You see that there are happy customers and you go out of your way to change that.

Then you go on to justify your actions as if you were not really a player.

I guess that has to be the ultimate example of "Just Saying".

[skibunny]

It seems KidKruger has many issues about people posting truthful posts on here. These posts are indivdual opinions. People take the time to write these posts to hopefully help people, or warn people, about good/bad services they receive.

[KidKruger]

One issue, though I may not be succinct with my comments. I just think it's cheap behaviour.

If you're going to slag a place off, at least make up your mind why you're doing so.

Because there are consequences to the business you're dissing.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

KK, you know nothing about me so don't call my behaviour stupid as I could equally say the same about your behaviour .

It's a public forum , which means people can post their views, sorry if my views aren't the same as yours .

The butchers has a recent rating of 1, FACT , Thus people might want to know that as I most certainly do .

Thanks Skibunny. Someone with common sense .

[MrBen]

I'm with KidKruger. Cheap behaviour. Fine to post an opinion based on your only one visit but remember that someone's livelihood is at stake.

As a regular I can honestly say I've only had good stuff from here. Whilst he doesn't tick all the boxes of convention, the corn fed whole chickens are great and I've had superb rib of beef for much less than WR price per kilo.

Does anyone else obsess over the minutae of hygiene scores online before they order a curry or chinese...or buy hot food from a local market? I'm pretty sure many don't tick all the boxes but that most are a million miles on from the even the 1980's. It's a relative score to a modern standard.

[skibunny]

I am not referring to the Butchers.... I am just referring to KidKruger's obsession with being totally vile with his use of foul language on everyone else's threads.

If you receive poor service from somewhere you are totally justified to air your views on here and warn other people about your experiences, good and bad.

It says a lot about someone's intelligence (or rather lack of) when they resort to using language such as "cheap behaviour" "slag" etc in their vocabulary.

[ken78]

well done MR KidKruger looks like that DulwichBorn&Bred is getting knickers in a twist and having to copy and paste from a web site is very sad the way she {i say a she as i don't think this a man}was talking you would have thought she NEW THE LOT but its very sad to say she knew jack,what about traceability did not say any thing about this did she ? why because was not on the site she got the info from. skibunny did you read all the post that DulwichBorn&Bred put up

{i don't thing so}is this what you call and i quote "truthful posts on here" as DulwichBorn&Bred said "I can't confirm it's the same person but a coincidence given the name and shop location ?" NOW THATS WHAT I CALL FACTS {I DON'T THINK SO}so before any one want to slag any one down {skibunny} DO TRY AND GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT AS IT MAKES YOU SOUND A LITTE BIT SILLY, and DulwichBorn&Bred as you say "It's a public forum , which means people can post their views" a little silly again to say this on a public forum don't you think ??? i think KidKruger MrBen ClaireClaire Mustard and me all wrong ??

[Mustard]

skibunny Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I am not referring to the Butchers.... I am just

> referring to KidKruger's obsession with being

> totally vile with his use of foul language on

> everyone else's threads.

> If you receive poor service from somewhere you are

> totally justified to air your views on here and

> warn other people about your experiences, good and

> bad.

> It says a lot about someone's intelligence (or

> rather lack of) when they resort to using language

> such as "cheap behaviour" "slag" etc in their

> vocabulary.

She didn't say she received poor service, just that she didn't like the mince from there. It was the only thing she bought.

[skibunny]

First of all ken78 I find your SEXIST views to be highly offensive. Secondly, you accuse others of being "silly" and yet you cannot spell the word "knew", nor are you able to use capital letters appropriately, not can you write properly without omitting words such as "her" and letters, nor do you know how to use apostrophes, nor commas, nor grammar correctly... Again, you are having to resort to using disgusting language, such as "slag"; and please copy and paste the exact words I have used to "slag anyone down".

Perhaps you should spend your time on receiving a decent education, rather than wasting your time with nonsensical comments on here!