Ladies or women?

[Asset]

yes it does - hence the thread

[zeban]

No it doesn't in many peoples opinions! jesus christ!!!!

You find it so and that's fine but some others including myself do not. And I'm a v.strong feminist.

ETA: I use the word gentleman to describe men too as in 'there's a gentleman over there' when I'm describing my customers. It's polite in my eyes and shows respect to those I'm referring to.

[Voyageur]

Asset Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> maybe because it's so ingrained and they're not

> really thinking about the connotations......

FFS - I am learned, worldly wise, intelligent and intolerant of injustice and inequality and I have NO PROBLEM AT ALL with being referred to as a lady at times - wish it were more times! Stop trying to force your hang ups down other people's throats, live and let live. There ..... sorted :)

[ClareC]

Isn't "men" simply a shortened version, slang even of "gentlemen"?

I don't see the two terms as different, the same as I never would have thought "lady" would be offensive to some. Personally I prefer the term lady to woman but I see both as descriptive of gender and nothing more.....

It amazes me how easy it is to offend unintentionally!

[maxxi]

Bint?

[katie1997]

I've never considered whether I am a feminist or not - probably because I am so busy with cooking and cleaning all the time - but oooooh, it bloody annoys me, this 'lady' thing. Why are people misconstruing it as being simply annoyed at being called a 'lady'. No - it's NOT about the term itself, have no problem being called a lady by someone who didn't intend 'offence' etc - its just the whole LADY label for want of a better word. Couldn't explain it nearly as well as Rosie's post on page 2 of this thread nails it (that's the rocket science one, dearies).

Never thought I'd say this, I think quids is wrong (shock horror). I don't feel its a case of "it's old-fashioned and doesn't suit a modern bird etc". I mean, "Gentleman" could be perceived as old-fashioned but is it used in the same way as 'lady'? No, it bloody well isn't.

Fair enough for any women/ladies/crumpets/delete as applicable, people out there who AREN'T offended/bothered/don't notice it.

night night mother-fuckers.

[DaveR]

"Why are people misconstruing it as being simply annoyed at being called a 'lady'"

Because this was the first line of the original post on this thread:

"I object to being referred to as a lady"

Catch up dear.

[katie1997]

DaveR Wrote:

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> "Why are people misconstruing it as being simply

> annoyed at being called a 'lady'"

>

> Because this was the first line of the original

> post on this thread:

>

> "I object to being referred to as a lady"

>

> Catch up dear.

as asset says, rosieh has put the argument much more succinctly with her subsequent post. the debate has moved on from the first line of the original post on the thread. keep up yourself.

[????]

Aware that I am that I am a bloke. I am Still not convinced that your views represent how most, many woman think. Whilst I think it's dated terminology I hear woman use it frequently as a kind of modern equivalent of adult males saying boys. I can think of numerous contexts which don't work in writing where ladies is used as a collective, slightly ironic collective noun, mainly by woman but also by men. Are we to lose this because it is somehow an oppressive noun of male domination.....the dreaded L word. Not convinced at all. Sorry women.

Edited 'cos even I can't tolerate 3 I am's in one sentence.

[????]

Plus..

Lay lady lay

Three times a lady

Lady madonnas

Ladies night

......and many more.....even that stoopid gang am rap thing. All banned for outdated sexism.

Lady gaga no problem

[Huguenot]

I imagine that it speaks much to the independence and self determination of women that they should have everybody dancing on eggshells around them for fear of what word might offend their delicate sensibilities next.

/end irony

[Huguenot]

I guess it's offensive when it's faux respect: "you're calling me a 'lady' but what you actually meant was 'imbecile cooking whore'".

I think the challenge with the complaint is that it's based on the notion that a certain type of man will stop thinking that women are 'imbecile cooking whores' just because he's not allowed to use the term 'lady'.

That isn't going to happen. If the protagonist feels that way about women he's just going to convey it in another way and with a substitute term.

The counter argument is that we can play word politics with other terms, particularly racist ones, so why not with 'lady'?

The problem with that is it's claiming that the word 'lady' is on a par with racist abuse. For most people that's extraordinary hyperbole. There's undoubtedly a few men who use the term as abuse, but for the vast majority it's a term of endearment.

For the record I address most people - men and women - as 'darling' because it's a throwaway sobriquet that communicates that I like them, because I do.

It would be great if no one on here compares me with a rapist for doing that. Most people do not walk away gnashing their teeth over this. If they do, it says more about them then it does about me.

[Alan Medic]

RosieH Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Alan Medic Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > RosieH Wrote:

> >

> > > "Lady" is a loaded term - it implies

> gentility,

> > > refinement, delicacy - it comes with a whole

> > set

> > > of messages that piss women off because men

> > aren't

> > > subjected to the same set of expectations.

> >

> > 'Loaded term' my elbo. Only in your head.

> Strange

> > creatures as *Bob* said.

>

> Only in my head? And Asset's? And Katienumbers'?

> And every other woman who dislikes it.

>

> You're right, you're right, of course you are.

> Silly old me, to try to tell a man what it is to

> be a woman, when of course he knows best. (of

> course, the OED definition was probably written by

> a silly little woman who didn't know what's what

> either).

>

> You know how a St George's Cross is sometimes seen

> as a sign of racism? That's all in my head too of

> course! What a dolt I've been. What a clever

> chap you are, with what a sound grounding in

> semiotics.

>

If you argue Rosie, that men can't possibly know what is going on inside a woman's head (which I would 100% agree with), by the same token you can't argue that you know what is going on inside a man's head who uses the term 'Lady'.

[RosieH]

Lady pens

http://www.upworthy.com/boom-roasted-heres-why-you-dont-ask-a-feminist-to-hawk-your-sexist-product?g=2&c=ufb1

[Otta]

Isn't "men" simply a shortened version,

slang even of "gentlemen"?

That would suggest that "gentlemen" came first, which it didn't.

[*Bob*]

RosieH Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Lady pens

> http://www.upworthy.com/boom-roasted-heres-why-you

> -dont-ask-a-feminist-to-hawk-your-sexist-product?g

> =2&c=ufb1

GREAT I just bought some - as stocking fillers. Before they all sell-out ( / are discontinued)

[El Pibe]

Man is one of our old saxon/norse imports.

See also Old Swedish, Dutch, Old High German 'man', German 'Mann', Old Norse 'ma?r', Danish 'mand', Goth 'manna'.

It was a universal term for a person, and I quote:

"Sense of "adult male" is late (c.1000); Old English used 'wer' and 'wif'* to distinguish the sexes, but wer began to disappear late 13c. and was replaced by man."

*whence we get wife.

 

[Huguenot]

Is the problem with the pens the people that made them or the people that buy them?

[Asset]

You know what, it would appear I'm not allowed to express my opinions for fear of coming across as either a hysterical little lady getting all worked up over nothing or a rabid feminist who wants to castrate all men.

It's very interesting how upset some people seem to have got about me, and others, saying I object to the term even though I think some quite solid arguments have been put forward for not using it.

I have not said at any point that it's 'offensive' which is what my initial objection has been turned into, obviously there are far more offensive words for women in use.

It does grate with me, it doesn't sound right to me any more and I don't use the term myself. It is an outdated and inappropriate term in my opinion.

I just fancied seeing what others thought and I'm surprised it's caused such vehement responses, particularly from other women!

Why use the word 'lady' when you can use the word 'woman'? it's genuinely slightly bizarre (to me) that some people think it's insulting to say woman.

Me and my delicate sensibilities eh?

[Huguenot]

Because 'woman' feels slightly functional, grey and taxonomic I guess.

Referring to the 'woman' at the bank rather than the 'lady' at the bank suggests that it's dehumanising her as a prelude to some more substantiated criticism.

In that sense it's used to add positive gloss, so it's not surprising that people may take umbrage at being deliberately misinterpreted as being somehow insulting and diminishing.

[Jessie]

I'm surprised being referred to as a 'woman' could be described as a dehumanising prelude to some other criticism. I'd never take it like that. Why is 'woman' so problematic to you? I'd describe myself as a woman and never a lady.

[Huguenot]

It's not problematic at all :)

It's nuance.

Few people may refer to 'that bloody lady' but I've heard that 'that bloody woman' more than a few times.

Asking what the subtle differences are that cause that particular usage is simply a semantic enquiry, not a manifestation of some sort of demented misogynist problem.

[Voyageur]

This thread is just regurgitating itself ad nauseum.

Perhaps it can be summed up as follows - some females object to being referred to as ladies, some find it offensive, some couldn't care less and some are quite happy being so referred to. Thing is, whatever your view, don't try and force others into adopting your opinion - and please have some consideration for the fact that if someone inadvertently refers to you as a lady they are not intending to insult you, in fact, probably far from it.

[El Pibe]

I guess if we're talking cultural deprecation then the gender specific taxonomic aspects are irrelevant, and gentleman should go the way of Asset's lady.

I would never describe myself as a 'gentleman' that would be patently absurd, not to mention utterly pretentious, like putting esquire after your name.

However as a polite term of reference in the third person in a semi formal situation such as 2 service employees within earshot of a customer "can you serve the gentleman/lady", I think it's actually better than the rather functional man/woman and infinitely preferable to sir, which I do object to and have to try hard not to do the old schtick about 'that's what my teacher blah blah'.

Asset's opinion is perfectly acceptable but I don't think it's really something worth getting worked up about from any direction.

[????]

Asset your post a bit earlier does suggest that you asked the question believing that you'd only get agreement rather than ' you fancied seeing what others thought' and you're a bit miffed you've not.... and maybe you're the one whose got the issue with other people expressing their opinions rather than the other way round...