Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads

[Rockets]

People are fighting back against the one-sided view of the world being projected by the pro-closure lobby.

Everything is not as rosy as they would like the world to believe........

I am seeing more and more people responding to their tweets exposing what is really happening...it seems they have a policy of only responding and engaging with their supporters though....

[Penguin68]

35% of all car trips are shorter than 2km....

You have to be a bit careful about these figures. If you set off on a long trip, stop at a garage locally for petrol, and then continue, that's 2 trips - once under 2km, and one longer. It depends very much on how they are being both recorded and reported. Broadly (and it makes sense) the figures give a reasonable view - mostly (60% of the time) you travel within around 5kms of your starting place before returning - though who you're with, what you are carrying and the purpose of your journey are ignored. As is the state of the weather and the time (you're more likely to take a car if you plan some part of your journey out or return when public transport you could use isn't running).

And if you're running a relatively (or completely) 'clean' vehicle - electric or hydrogen (eventually) the number and length of your trips will be completely irrelevant when it comes to issues of pollution. Which is the future that many people are looking to - but if the cycling brigade get their way, and we are forced out of having cars, the necessary economies of scale for an electric or hydrogen future will be lost. If people don't or can't, buy sufficient numbers of the cars, they will be generally unaffordable - so the only motorists left will be the wealthy. Considering the socialist (indeed Marxist) background of so many of the campaigners surely an unintended consequence?

[Abe_froeman]

It's also wrong to say that just because a journey is less than 5km it should not be made by car. Just today someone on here has asked how to recycle a large volume of cardboard. They have three options - 1) go by car to the recelying centre 4km away 2) put what they can in their domestic recycling and burn the rest on a bonfire 3) pay the council ?16 to collect it.

The least attractive is the most expensive but the council have put us in this position.

[Rockets]

Therein lies the problem for those who say "well all these journeys can be done by foot or bike". They can't - it's not binary - there are nuances - just because a journey is below 2km doesn't mean it can magically but done out of a car (BTW why does TFL use KMs?). Granted some of them can but I have seen zero evidence to suggest that enough people are able to make the switch to not cause terrible displacement issues elsewhere.

[malumbu]

We should all use KM, trouble is we are a backward nation, not as backward as the US. Backward is of course a relative term and used to stress the point.

[Spartacus]

malumbu Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> We should all use KM, trouble is we are a backward

> nation, not as backward as the US. Backward is of

> course a relative term and used to stress the

> point.

Boy

Imagine the cost of replacing every road sign in the UK from miles to km

Still not to worry, we're getting pounds shillings and pence back soon 🤔

[FairTgirl]

Dulwichgirl82 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> https://twitter.com/edgnursery/status/131242138417

> 4424071?s=21

> I think the view of the nursery in east dulwich

> grove is both telling and sad.

This has been highlighted to councillors today, the impact for them and other schools and nurseries on these roads is untenable.

[slarti b]

@Spartacus

Imagine the cost of replacing every road sign in the UK from miles to km

Interesting that the distance markers on motorways, the labels on the side\centrl barrier which you will be asked for in event of accident or breakdown, show the disctance in kiometres from the start of the motorway ;-)

[JohnL]

Spartacus Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> malumbu Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > We should all use KM, trouble is we are a

> backward

> > nation, not as backward as the US. Backward is

> of

> > course a relative term and used to stress the

> > point.

>

> Boy

> Imagine the cost of replacing every road sign in

> the UK from miles to km

>

> Still not to worry, we're getting pounds shillings

> and pence back soon 🤔

When I was young every signpost in Wales was English only and someone made it their job to cover every one with green paint. These days every sign is bilingual with Welsh first.

Mind You it works both ways with the loss of our EU status - I brought 48 cans of Brewdog last week and 16 of them were made in the USA and had 12 fluid Oz instead of 330 ml

[slarti b]

Decimilisation in the UK is a lot older that the EU. The florin (2 shillings) was introduced as a first step to this as a tenth of a pound in...1849!

Metric measurements were legalised in 1896 and a draft bill in 1910 proposed compulsory metrification but was dropped due apparently to "war and depression"

[JohnL]

LOL reminds me that France were once going for a 10 month year - it got abandoned :)

[malumbu]

I was taught in both imperial and metric measurements, but by high school it would have been exclusively the latter. Can't do maths, technical drawing and the sciences in the modern world using ancient units of measurement. The 70s are now considered a time of strife, but I think at the dawn of the decade there was a lot of positivity about a new technical age. Kelloggs ran a campaign on their cereal packets on simple ways of converting to metric units. It seems that things were similar on the US:

The Metric Conversion Act is an Act of Congress that President Ford signed into law on December 23, 1975.[1] It declared the metric system "the preferred system of weights and measures for United States trade and commerce", but permitted the use of United States customary units in all activities. As Ford's statement on the signing of the act emphasizes, all conversion was to be "completely voluntary."[1] The Act also established the United States Metric Board with representatives from scientific, technical, and educational institutions, as well as state and local governments to plan, coordinate, and educate the U.S. people for the Metrication of the United States.

..... the Metric Conversion Act of 1975, directed departments and agencies within the executive branch of the United States Government to "take all appropriate measures within their authority" to use the metric system "as the preferred system of weights and measures for United States trade and commerce."

The metrification board was abolished in 1982 by President Ronald Reagan.... [extract from wiki before you complain about the spelling]

As for converting road signs etc the Canadians and Irish have managed this. Although Canada is all over the shop in every day practice eg shopping - we've at least sorted that out, apart from beer and milk - a simple step would be to sell both in multiples of 600ml, getting over the issue of devaluation if simplified to half a litre.

[northbank]

Penguin68 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> 35% of all car trips are shorter than 2km....

>

> You have to be a bit careful about these figures.

> If you set off on a long trip, stop at a garage

> locally for petrol, and then continue, that's 2

> trips - once under 2km, and one longer.

That's one trip with two stages. " A trip is defined as a one-way movement from an origin to a

destination to achieve a specific purpose, for example, to go from home to work.

Each trip may involve travel by one or more individual modes of transport. These

component parts of trips are referred to as journey stages. Key concepts relating

to trips, journey stages and main mode of travel were explained in detail in Travel

in London report 5, including the assignment of a main mode to each trip based on

the journey stage by which the longest distance is travelled (as part of a whole

individual trip)."

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/travel-in-london-report-12.pdf

>It depends

> very much on how they are being both recorded and

> reported. Broadly (and it makes sense) the figures

> give a reasonable view - mostly (60% of the time)

> you travel within around 5kms of your starting

> place before returning - though who you're with,

> what you are carrying and the purpose of your

> journey are ignored. As is the state of the

> weather and the time (you're more likely to take a

> car if you plan some part of your journey out or

> return when public transport you could use isn't

> running).

Other criteria for switching from car in here

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/analysis-of-walking-potential-2016.pdf

Criteria - Filter

Encumbrance - The person making the trip is carrying tools or heavy work equipment.

Age - Trips of more than 1.5km made by those aged under 12 or over 69; trips of more than 2km made by those aged 12-69.

Current mode - Trip made by van, dial-a-ride, plane or boat.

Trip chaining - The trip is part of a wider chain of trips that cannot be walked in its entirety

and here

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/analysis-of-cycling-potential-2016.pdf

Criteria - Filter

Encumbrance - Person carrying a heavy or bulky load

Trip length - Trip is longer than 8km

Journey time - Trip would take more than 20% extra time to cycle

Age - Traveller is over five and under 64

Time of travel - Trip is made between 8pm and 6am

Disability - Traveller has a disability affecting their travel

Current mode - Trip made by van, dial-a-ride, plane or boat

>

> And if you're running a relatively (or completely)

> 'clean' vehicle - electric or hydrogen

> (eventually) the number and length of your trips

> will be completely irrelevant when it comes to

> issues of pollution. Which is the future that many

> people are looking to - but if the cycling brigade

> get their way, and we are forced out of having

> cars, the necessary economies of scale for an

> electric or hydrogen future will be lost. If

> people don't or can't, buy sufficient numbers of

> the cars, they will be generally unaffordable - so

> the only motorists left will be the wealthy.

> Considering the socialist (indeed Marxist)

> background of so many of the campaigners surely an

> unintended consequence?

"A literature review carried out for the European Commission concluded that about half of all particulate matter results from brake dust, road dust and tyre erosion"

https://www.imeche.org/news/news-article/this-is-why-electric-cars-won%27t-stop-air-pollution

[Penguin68]

Decimilisation in the UK is a lot older that the EU. The florin (2 shillings) was introduced as a first step to this as a tenth of a pound in...1849!

Metric measurements were legalised in 1896 and a draft bill in 1910 proposed compulsory metrification but was dropped due apparently to "war and depression"

Off topic, I know, but (I'm old) I was taught to calculate in base 10, base 12, base 20, (base 21 - for guineas) base 8, base 16, base 14, base 112 (and don't get me talking about rods, poles and perches) modern children get base 2 and base 10 only. Whose was the more searching education?

[JohnL]

Hex (base 16) surely still being taught or how do they understand a IPv6 or MAC address.

[exdulwicher]

Off topic, I know, but (I'm old) I was taught to calculate in base 10, base 12, base 20, (base 21 - for guineas) base 8, base 16, base 14, base 112 (and don't get me talking about rods, poles and perches) modern children get base 2 and base 10 only. Whose was the more searching education?

That's fantastic!

UK railways still use an amazing mix of metric and imperial. Railway length is measured from a defined point (ie distance from origin station) so all technical documents refer to features (like a set of points, a bridge etc) as being xx miles, yy chains from [origin]

A chain is 22 yards. 10 chains to a furlong and 8 furlongs to the mile.

Hex (base 16) surely still being taught or how do they understand a IPv6 or MAC address.

No chance - not unless you go for computer science at degree level.

This is more fun than talking about road closures, maybe we need another thread in the Lounge for random geeky maths!

[KidKruger]

Anyone learning computer science at GCSE or above should understand a bit about base 16 Hex.

[malumbu]

Always found it strange that in engineering 50 years ago 1000ths of an inch were used for fine precision rather than 1728ths

[FairTgirl]

For anyone who has not seen it - Cllr McAsh posted this on his blog today.

https://www.jamesmcash.com/blog/faqs-on-goose-green-ltn-measures

[Slocky]

FairTgirl Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> For anyone who has not seen it - Cllr McAsh posted

> this on his blog today.

>

> https://www.jamesmcash.com/blog/faqs-on-goose-gree

> n-ltn-measures

A useful, informative and balanced analysis I thought.

[Rockets]

I agree but it lacks any real substance or a definitive timeline for review and the fact Cllr McAsh suggests cheap fixes for Matham Grove etc suggests more may go in before they get to identify the source of the problem (which we all know they know what it is).

It's a step in the right direction but the council needs to put the same energy into the review as they did the closures - they went in overnight so if they need to remove them they should come out overnight as well.

The most telling part is the complete lack of coordination between the councillors in neighbouring wards which has led to the problems being caused by the closures - each focussed solely on trying to appease their constituents (ahem neighbours in some cases) and cared not one jot for the impact for others.

[Earl Aelfheah]

It?s a good, balanced post from James

[Rockets]

It will be interesting to see what happens in neighbouring Lewisham as it seems they are working more quickly to resolve some of the issues caused by the closures. I suspect many councils want to see what others do first.

[FairTgirl]

Lewisham has responded - some removal, some adaptation. It may not be all that One Lewisham were after but the council were listening.

https://lewisham.gov.uk/articles/news/changes-to-lewisham-and-lee-green-low-traffic-neighbourhood-announced

It is important now for as many people - residents and business to make formal objections to these the traffic orders. The council has a legal obligation to read them and take them into consideration. Below is for the Phase 2 East Dulwich Closures.

Lodge your objections to the road closures

[forms.southwark.gov.uk]

quoting reference ?TMO2021-EXP10_LSP E Dulwich?.

Please note that if you wish to object to the scheme you must state the grounds on which your objection is made.

[Rockets]

All the councils are desperately trying to cling on to the closures but they all know the clock is ticking against them.