Tony Abbott

[TheCat]

So as an Australian, I am pretty familiar with Mr Abbott. I'm not much of a fan - I don't like his views on gay marriage or his very 'traditional' views on family...

But...I'm not sure what any of that has to do with his ability to be a trade envoy? If people want to pick apart his trade experience, then fair enough; but how is it even logical to say that 'he's got unpopular views on gay marriage, therefore is unfit for the proposed trade role....

As one of the articles below suggests many religious folk (Muslim, Catholic etc) hold similar views (again, which I personally disagree with)....but does that mean we should bar them all from any public office?

Two relevant articles below with opposing views so hopefully I can't be randomly accused on lack of balance....

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/sep/04/ian-mckellen-joins-condemnation-of-tony-abbott-trade-role

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/09/04/in-defence-of-tony-abbott/

[JohnL]

Boris has just said he "Doesn't agree at all with those views". Is he preparing the ground for someone else to be appointed.

It isn't really a U turn if they don't employ him but it's a bit of an embarrassment for Pritti (who seemed to recommend him).

This government seems sensitive at the moment (or maybe Boris is) - they just sacked one of Cumming's team for saying on social media that XR should be fired on by police. Sabisky also got sacked for his views on eugenics earlier this year.

[TheCat]

It's not just the government, it's corporates on the whole as well....I worry about the 'pointy end of the wedge' where we're starting to see people's personal views on a range of topics clash with the 'corporate values' on the same topic...leading to sidelining, workplace bullying, and even loss of employment or 'cancellation' (as I believe it's now called).

It used to be the case that people's politics and religious views weren't really topics which an employer could or should be concerned with. Now we are entering a grey area (I believe) where basic workplace respect and appropriate workplace behaviour are not enough, and more and more workplaces are pressuring employees to actively 'champion the values' to ensure corporate success. I get this when the value directly aligns with the job function, but don't get it when they do not...

[TheCat]

JohnL Wrote:

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>

> This government seems sensitive at the moment (or

> maybe Boris is)

Also, pretty hard to argue with this..they seem terrified of their own shadow on nearly every issue, and fold at the first sign of popular resistance....

[JohnL]

Well he is appointed as is Dan Hannan - there are a few others too.

[Sephiroth]

It's not just his problematic views tho, is it?

What exactly is his "ability to be a trade envoy? ". He is a Brexit supporter and that is the extent of his qualification for this position. What stardust will he bring to negotiations?

he just seems like a pig-headed remnant from the past, someone the EU and it's consitituient countries will look at and swat away

[womanofdulwich]

Do we really have to recruit from Australia? Can he get a work visa?

[TheCat]

Sephiroth Wrote:

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> It's not just his problematic views tho, is it?

Perhaps not. But all the articles or commentary I've seen objecting to his appointment seem to focus on his views over everything else. They would have been better served focussing on the points you make, to my mind, if they really wanted to garner real support to oppose him (not just soundbites from Gandalf the Grey:))

But perhaps he does bring something other than his brexit credentials....one view...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/sep/03/boris-johnson-tony-abbott-trade-expertise

I would add that I don't have a strong view on his ability as a trade envoy or otherwise, I'm more pointing out that focussing on his 'homophobic' or misogynist' views probably doesnt help, and serves as a distraction from about a proper public discussion about his abilities (or lack thereof)...

[TheCat]

womanofdulwich Wrote:

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> Do we really have to recruit from Australia? Can

> he get a work visa?

Are you opposed to immigrants being employed in the UK?

[pk]

TheCat Wrote:

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> womanofdulwich Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Do we really have to recruit from Australia?

> Can

> > he get a work visa?

>

>

> Are you opposed to immigrants being employed in

> the UK?

Is he actually immigrating then?

[Sephiroth]

God. Larry christing Elliott.

A tiny step up from Minford. But not much

[j.a.]

Sums it up in my view.

[womanofdulwich]

As its so hard for us to get a visa to work in Australia, I think it should work both ways. That is reasonable isn't it? I've been refused one , as has a friend from czech republic they have quite a strict points system.

[TheCat]

womanofdulwich Wrote:

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> As its so hard for us to get a visa to work in

> Australia, I think it should work both ways. That

> is reasonable isn't it? I've been refused one , as

> has a friend from czech republic they have quite a

> strict points system.

I think it's a moot point in anycase, as I understand the UK Trade Board director positions are unpaid....

No doubt australia has pretty tight rules though. When the possibility of a move back came up recently, it transpired that even as an Australian myself, Mrs Cat (being of Blighty) does not automatically qualify for a work visa despite many years of marriage and producing two australian-citizen mini-cats.....

[seenbeen]

Homophobes and misogynists are everywhere and plenty of them are closet cases. At least we know his views and as TheCat pointed out

"As one of the articles below suggests many religious folk (Muslim, Catholic etc) hold similar views (again, which I personally disagree with)....but does that mean we should bar them all from any public office?"

-especially the ones that are face to face with the public in their jobs?

A friend had a bad experience in hospital here in SE London. She is admitted regularly as she has a GENETIC disease that makes her susceptible to serious problems. While she was in there a 'nurse' came to her and said that she should go to the nurse's church as it would make her well! Fortunately my friend is not desperate as she knows all about her disease so was not beguiled by this.

[Effra]

Many of you lot are spouting off without doing adequate research.

1. He will be acting as an UNPAID adviser, so forget about about work permits.

2.He was born in London, graduated from Oxford and is a committed Anglophile. He is doing it out of he desire to help the UK.

3. He negotiated free trade agreements with China, Japan and South Korea so he is eminently qualified

[womanofdulwich]

Thanks, I had no idea he was born in London.

[j.a.]

Effra Wrote:

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> Many of you lot are spouting off without doing

> adequate research.

>

>

> 3. He negotiated free trade agreements with China,

> Japan and South Korea so he is eminently qualified

He didn?t negotiate anything. As I said above, read this...

He, Abbott personally, isn?t a particularly qualified trade expert.

Now if we were getting Andrew Robb it?d be a different matter.

[Effra]

j.a. Wrote:

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> Effra Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Many of you lot are spouting off without doing

> > adequate research.

> >

> >

> > 3. He negotiated free trade agreements with

> China,

> > Japan and South Korea so he is eminently

> qualified

>

>

> He didn?t negotiate anything. As I said above,

> read this...

>

>

> 1407770776940544

>

> He, Abbott personally, isn?t a particularly

> qualified trade expert.

> Now if we were getting Andrew Robb it?d be a

> different matter.

Twitter!! That really is a most valuable source of objectively researched content. It's so good even Donald Trump uses.

[j.a.]

Whatever dude, see what you want to see, ignore what doesn?t fit your narrative.

The fact remains that Tony Abbott is not a trade expert; all those deals you mention were actually negotiated by Andrew Robb. Abbott is an ideological soulmate of Johnson, however. If I?d linked to a tweet from Hannon or Mumford I?m sure you?d be fine with it.

Crack on, chum...

[TheCat]

j.a. Wrote:

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> Whatever dude, see what you want to see, ignore

> what doesn?t fit your narrative.

>

> The fact remains that Tony Abbott is not a trade

> expert; all those deals you mention were actually

> negotiated by Andrew Robb. Abbott is an

> ideological soulmate of Johnson, however. If I?d

> linked to a tweet from Hannon or Mumford I?m sure

> you?d be fine with it.

>

> Crack on, chum...

J.a. seems you're being a bit dismissive...in the second guardian article I posted above, by Abbott's own admission he says he's not an expert in the minutae of trade negotiations, but seemingly has experience in judging when to push or pull (at a higher level) to ensure progress...surely that's worth something? Particularly when we consider that these are unpaid, advisory, trade board roles..he's not being hired as a negotiator who'll be bashing out a deal across a table...

[j.a.]

I?m mainly dismissive of Effra?s view that just because an actual trade expert gave their view via Twitter, that view is invalid.

I probably could?ve made that clearer.

However, Abbott is being touted by the UK govt as an ?expert? (see Matt Hancock et al) - and that isn?t the case - and I?d say that the govt is happy to conflate the true role of the Board of Trade with that of the actual negotiators. I don?t think that?s healthy, in terms of the wider debate.

[Effra]

j.a. Wrote:

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> I?m mainly dismissive of Effra?s view that just

> because an actual trade expert gave their view via

> Twitter, that view is invalid.

>

> I probably could?ve made that clearer.

>

> However, Abbott is being touted by the UK govt as

> an ?expert? (see Matt Hancock et al) - and that

> isn?t the case - and I?d say that the govt is

> happy to conflate the true role of the Board of

> Trade with that of the actual negotiators. I don?t

> think that?s healthy, in terms of the wider

> debate.

Well J.A., as someone who has negotiated commercial deals at senior level for best part of 30 years, I can advise you that any complex negotiation need to be conducted by a team who have a wide range of skills ie legal experts, trade experts, tacticians and strategists etc.

You need the grimblers who have the ability to master the minutiae, and, at a much higher level, the strategists and advisers who have personality and psychological skills to do the actual negotiations.

Barnier is a classic strategist who know how to play the game. Abbot is similar. He has adopted successful strategies consistently in the past at a senior level such as succeeding in becoming Prime Minister. What he did when he was PM is another matter so spare us the details please.

[TheCat]

j.a. Wrote:

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>

> However, Abbott is being touted by the UK govt as

> an ?expert? (see Matt Hancock et al) - and that

> isn?t the case - and I?d say that the govt is

> happy to conflate the true role of the Board of

> Trade with that of the actual negotiators. I don?t

> think that?s healthy, in terms of the wider

> debate.

To be fair, I don't think the government is reallty on the hook for trying to confuse the public on this one. What should have been a relatively low profile advisory board appointment has turned into a massive hoopla the past week, driven by the media latching on to his potential appointment, and then getting hysterical about his 'homophobic' and 'misogynistic' views (Matt Hancock didn't go on to sky to talk about Tony Abbott, the sky news reporter just cornered him with a bit of sensationalist questioning)...so if anyone has conflated anything is the broader press I'd say....

[j.a.]

That?s a number of good points, and I see the logic in it all.

I would reiterate that the UK govt could be clearer in that aspect, and they?re prioritising they installation of ideological soulmates, but then that?s this govt for you. I hope the Board of Trade lives up to expectations; certainly Marcus Fysh hasn?t had a good start.

(Not quite sure what you mean by ?spare us the details?, but I suspect you?re trying ineffectually to have a dig at me, whatever...)