Make sure that your child's school consults you about the new RSE curriculum

[j.a.]

I was planning to engage further with you on this issue, but decided to read more of your published works first.

You really are a piece of work. You?re a reactionary bigot who?s religion allows her to believe she is right about everything and we are all wrong. Progressive and liberal? Guilty as charged, I wear it proudly. You don?t like how people think? Maybe stick to your echo chamber.

Every pint you?ve made on here had been disproved in its turn, and you keep moving the goalposts of the discussion. The only person agreeing with you is the mental TE44, and I?m sure if you go outside London you?ll find more people to agree with you, but strangely you?ll also find more racists, homophobes and sexists.

You yourself hate feminism and think men are undermined (beeeyatch purleeeease!), so I reckon you?ll be happy in the company of people who think things ?used to be better?. Well, maybe, but if you want to talk about how good things used to be then let?s talk about the rampant prevalence of chauvinism, racism, domestic abuse and sexual abuse in society (Catholic church anyone?) back in the 60?s, 70?s and 80?s that you?re venerating. You decry feminism, but did you really like the way women were treated in the workplace back then? Did you think systemic sexism was a good thing? Did you like the police calling BAME people highly offensive names in the street?

Society?s morale code IS a progressive thing, whether you like it or not. It?s a continuous conversation we have with ourselves about what norms we consider acceptable and how we feel about things. There was a time we judicially murdered gay people. Then it was just illegal, than just widely condemned on a moral level, and now gay marriage legal, and yet STILL there are people who object to it. And often that objection - and much else when morality is concerned - is grounded in religious beliefs.

This is not a theocracy. We have a legal code built on the framework of Judeo-Christian beliefs, but over time we have evolved into a secular legal framework and no longer look to religious teachings as the absolute word on things. People change, hopefully for the better, and things that for all we knows have represented the best thinking of their time are seen as just plain wrong by any modern standard.

You see an ideology at work, but I think you?re seeing why you want to see. You?re convinced you?re right and I don?t believe you?re looking for a wider audience than your Twitter feed; you want people to agree with you, and when they don?t you have a problem with it.

I have no problem with you having your beliefs, but when you use them to try and persuade people of the merits of a regressive, small-minded policy then it?s wrong. You can think what you like about me, I really don?t care, and I will leave the rest of this thread to you and your small-minded, reactionary opinion. I?ve read a lot of your published work online and feel comfortable in that statement; you describe yourself as tolerant but I dispute that.

Laters mate, I?m out.

[snowy]

niledynodely Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> If a child is vulnerable, for example he or she

> has suffered abuse at home or whatever, and they

> are then confronted with images of splayed legs,

> cross-sections of penises in vagines (e.g YOu, me

> and PSHE) or cartoon images of people engaged in

> sexual intercourse (Spring Fever), I think that

> there is a liklihood that these images and the

> context could trigger inappropriate behaviours

> (which are called sexual abuse although I would

> not be so quick to call them that - the authories

> would). For me this seems such an obvious risk I

> think that the onus should be on the providers of

> the material to prove that this won't happen. Of

> course it can't be scientifically tested one way

> or another, but rates of child on child sexual

> abuse have gone up in schools and my hunch is that

> some of the more sexualised curriculums have a

> role to play.

So no proven / evaluated research then.

[TE44]

Thanks niledynodely. I was speaking with some friends who are extremely worried about what is going on. One of my friends who was groomed from a young age until she ran away, believes some of this material feels very similiar to what she experienced. Now she can see it from an adult perspective she believes if she had encountered this at the age of 13 it would have normalised what she was already going through and caused great confusion. What a priviledge it is to be progressive and liberal when you have not had to face sexual encounters before the age of puberty.

[Siduhe]

@niledynodely - nice redirect there, suggesting your concern was about triggering victims of child sex abuse, but that isn't what you originally said, now is it?

You said very clearly, and with absolutely no basis or support, that educating children about sex, including sex in a same sex relationship, was likely to make them "interested" in copying what they see and therefore contribute towards child on child sex abuse. There's also a pretty nasty implication in your posts that it's the LGBTQ+ aspects that particularly lead to this risk.

I called that out as alarmist, not backed up with any kind of evidence and frankly a gross misconception and misstatement of what is actually being taught, based on the information you yourself have provided.

I also invited you to think about those young people who may be struggling with their sexuality and who needs the help and support that these sort of lessons provide, but I see you also ducked that - presumably because young LGBT people don't register in your world.

I'll say it again to both of you - there is exactly zero evidence (anecdotal or empirical) to suggest that child sex education contributes to child sex abuse. If anything, it provides an opportunity for educators to reinforce messages about consent and give victims of child sex abuse the opportunity to speak up. Rather than brushing it under the carpet and not talking about it as you seem to prefer, leaving any young people who are actually victims to deal with that guilt and horror all alone.

I respect those parents who may have views about what they want their children to learn at school but this sort of out and out misinformation in support of a ideological campaign that seems rooted in homophobia has no place in that debate.

[TE44]

Siduhe, I believe people do not want to look at sexual abuse, I believe many people are only interested in subjects highlighted where different views have created divide. I also believe people will choose to be standing on the high moral ground and convince themselves they are more understanding, less non judgemental than people who think differently to them. Within this sex education you make an assumption this will give children a chance to speak out about sexual abuse. Can you give ne a link to show this is happening.

[TE44]

https://learning.nspcc.org.uk/child-abuse-and-neglect/child-sexual-abuse

If you look at work and help suggested here for children who have suffered sexual abuse, I do not believe some of the RSE material is appropriate. Many children who have been sexually abused face a lifetime of PTSD. This thread is focusing on inclusion, the problem seems to be when the inclusion is focused on one agenda. Different issues need policies for different beliefs and circumstance. Hopefully ones that can actually teach adults to be more understanding of differences while holding respect for others.

[Siduhe]

TE44, when you say "I believe people do not want to look at sexual abuse" - are you saying that you think teaching children about sex at school, which may include showing pictures or diagrams (as it did when I was at school, many, many years ago btw) is itself sexual abuse? I don't want to misunderstand you, but this seems to be what you are saying.

On your request on support for the suggestion that sex education may be helpful for children suffering sexual abuse, of course. Here is the top link from a fairly basic google search, there are plenty of others:

https://www.coe.int/t/dg3/children/1in5/Source/PublicationSexualViolence/Gordon.pdf - this is part of the final publication of recommendations from a landmark campaign on protecting children from sexual violence which ran across Europe between 2010 to 2015;

This CoE report draws on the work which has been done by UNESCO in this area - the recently updated "International technical Guidance on Sexuality Education - An evidence-informed approach" is a bit more of a challenging read but very much worth it. This crosses over into an area I'm more involved which which is stamping out gender-based violence against women and girls (and yes, education and sex education is a big part of that too).

Edited to add, and I can't see anything in that link you posted from the NSPCC to suggest that educating children appropriately about sex and consent is child sex abuse. But it does rather tend to confirm that you believe showing children pictures and diagrams in the context of education is itself abusive. If so, I will only say that we had plenty of pictures and diagrams in the sex education I had at school in the 80s. Of course there were no same sex couples and zero education about that then, so is it that change which particularly concerns you?

[TE44]

Here is a more recent report regarding this particular toolkit.

Including concerns from Tanya Carter a spokeswoman from Safe Schools for Alliance.

She recognises "children who are victims of sexual abuse may findthis type of kesson material traumatising"

The OP started this thread to inform us about this particular material along with looking at parental choice. There are many different reasons parents differ around this material being taught, whether they agree or not. Children come from very diffferent background.

Many where they live with there abusers. I can see situations where abusers would welcome this material. Whilst the free from abuse adults may well sit at home comfortably with there tolerance and openess, unfortunately this will be very different for other families.

https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/new-sex-education-tool-kit-young-children-launched-amid-criticism-1682692

[TE44]

Sidhue i am not saying I am against sex education, i am saying its a subject that should be inclusive. Where it brings children to recognise difference without taking away the fact they can still relate.A concept we as people seem to be moving away from.

[Siduhe]

TE44, I just don't understand where you are coming from - you've publicly supported (and, indeed, doubled down on) a post that suggests that sex education in schools increases the risk of children suffering sexual abuse. I've explained why that is totally wrong, and pointed you towards two sets of materials that have been put together, based on empirical evidence, which explain it further if you read them [have you read them or even looked at them?].

You've pointed me towards a spokesperson for a pressure group who is against any of this material being taught in schools (forgive me if I prefer evidenced materials) and said that it's better in your view not to teach any of this stuff in case children are being abused at home and it makes things worse. How does not teaching children about consent in relationships and how important it is help those children who are being abused? How does ignoring it, not treating abuse as if it exists and is wrong, help those children understand that it's not their fault and needs to be stopped?

As I've said elsewhere on this thread, I'm respectful of people who want their children to be taught about sex and relationships in an age appropriate way - debate away about that point - but this horrible implication that teaching young people about sex, particularly in same sex relationships increases the risk of predatory behaviour and child sex abuse or somehow makes it worse for the child is so obviously wrong and offensive that I'm going to keep calling it out whenever I see it. It's based on prejudice and scaremongering, plain and simple.

[seenbeen]

Siduhe Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> TE44, I just don't understand where you are coming

> from - you've publicly supported (and, indeed,

> doubled down on) a post that suggests that sex

> education in schools increases the risk of

> children suffering sexual abuse. I've explained

> why that is totally wrong, and pointed you towards

> two sets of materials that have been put together,

> based on empirical evidence, which explain it

> further if you read them .

>

> You've pointed me towards a spokesperson for a

> pressure group who is against any of this material

> being taught in schools (forgive me if I prefer

> evidenced materials) and said that it's better in

> your view not to teach any of this stuff in case

> children are being abused at home and it makes

> things worse. How does not teaching children

> about consent in relationships and how important

> it is help those children who are being abused?

> How does ignoring it, not treating abuse as if it

> exists and is wrong, help those children

> understand that it's not their fault and needs to

> be stopped?

>

> As I've said elsewhere on this thread, I'm

> respectful of people who want their children to be

> taught about sex and relationships in an age

> appropriate way - debate away about that point -

> but this horrible implication that teaching young

> people about sex, particularly in same sex

> relationships increases the risk of predatory

> behaviour and child sex abuse or somehow makes it

> worse for the child is so obviously wrong and

> offensive that I'm going to keep calling it out

> whenever I see it. It's based on prejudice and

> scaremongering, plain and simple.

Here, here.

Within the teaching there is the opportunity to actually help abused children by finding out what makes them uncomfortable etc. and gives other children to share information that they have heard from an abused child. People who are abused, and children especially, sometimes grow up believing it is normal behaviour until they find out differently- what other experience could they have had? It all needs to come out into the open

[TE44]

https://unesdoc.unesco.org/ark:/48223/pf0000260770

Here is a updated Unesco report. I cannot see (by sections) where there information on dealing with sexual abuse is, but will look later. I agree children should be taught to keep themselves safe, accept different relationships it is the material being used that is causing a divide. I don't believe children nor myself as an adult want to know nor discuss details of peoples sex life regardless of there relationship, whether it be same sex or other, which I have no problem with.Many peoples sex lives would seem perverse, and may well be in relation to what webelieve to be normal. I personally feel as long as people (over legal age) consent and are not harming, abusing, anyone else I really don't care. I think its a dangerous situation to open and question norms around techniques in sex, I also have no problems of teaching children around differences but as I've already said, many children will already be aware of same sex relationships. This is being taught by not only there parents but adults around them. There is so much hatred around gender issues I think it would be a better idea to make a toolkit for adults.

[TE44]

SeenBeen ok lets have an example of bringing it out in the open in the classroom sitauation.abused child who rolls dice, anus/ object childs answer push object up anus till it bleeds. Rather restricting for a child who may have endured this whilst able to add a few other dice sides to that. Are you seriouz seen been do you really believe these lessons are a place these experiences can be shared. Of course not, the abused child will sit alone with secrets carried from young with the knowledge and awareness this does not happen to everyone.

Edied to add this link incase my post was upsetting to anyone.

https://wgac.colostate.edu/support/sexual-assault/healing-from-childhood-sexual-assault/

[Siduhe]

I don't think that anyone is suggesting that children will share details of sexual abuse in a sex education class - what people are saying, supported by evidence, is that teaching children about sex education in a modern, but age appropriate way, may help children who are being abused to realise that what is happening to them is wrong and speak up to a trusted adult. And I don't think you disagree with that from anything you've said TE44.

What you appear to object to is the education on same sex relationships and particularly sex in a same sex relationship, where you and NN have made a series of increasingly wild accusations that that sort of education either encourages child sex abuse or may be triggering for those who are or have suffered from child sex abuse, rather than helping them reach out for the help that they need. The whole premise of your argument (i.e that it encourages child sex abuse) is offensive and wrong, based on prejudice and scaremongering, plain and simple.

[TE44]

Siduhe, Again I will say I have no problems with same sex relationships, gender identities or any labelling of oneself. I have a problem with putting children into positions where it may be disrressing for them. I Have a problem with parents not being alowed a choice. I have a problem with people prejudiced to others beliefs and can only see there own agenda. I have a problem with people who can only assume the wors about people if they don't agree with there own beliefs. Yes you may call it plain and simple, I believe its a more complex problem.

[TE44]

https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2018/12/46417/

An interesting read that brings up many things I believe should be open for discussion, siduhe refers to homophobia but there is a huge problem within the Lgbtq+ community especially around trans issues. Again I do not have a problem with peoples choices around identity but I believe there may be people within that group that may need to reach out for the help they need, as I believe that help should be there for all children including sexually abused, intersex and other problems which they feel isolated with. This does not mean I do not believe there peers cannot be part of that help nor that they would not benefit from understanding, in fact I think the opposite. Ithat is why I believe great care should be taken when individual agendas overshadow others.

[alice]

Te44 Your ?interesting read? is a product of a right wing USA Organization which is against abortion and LBGQ marriage amongst other weird stuff.

[TE44]

Its interesting reading for me but then I don't particularly mind if I don't agree with different views, i can still relate with some. I know weird concept. yes, also believe right and left wing are being redefined in these recent climate Alice. Anything else.

[niledynodely]

Thanks for arguing this corner so well.

[niledynodely]

Just checking through these posts. That statement is an absolute nonosense. I think for example it would be great if they taught boys that if they get too involved with porn it can significantly affect their capacity to respond to a real human being. I would love young people to be warned about how sex bonds you to another person, or about anal sex being more risky than vaginal sex because the mucosal walls are that much thinner, or how they might feel after an abortion. There are loads of things which could be usefully discussed but I haven't seen them appear on the RSE material I have looked at.

[niledynodely]

Gay Conversion Therapy can also include a person wanting to overcome their same sex attraction and asking to discuss this with their therapist. That too is banned within the title 'Gay Conversion Therapy'. The opposition to it is as much an abuse of human rights as the image we have of the therapy itself. Ooo that will put the cat among the pigeons.

[niledynodely]

Actually I don't have a homophobic bone in my body. I just pointed out that homophobic bullying is not the most serious form of bullying and that lobbies bang on about it in order to get money. I think you can be completely accepting of gay people (which I am) but not agree with the ideology of 'smashing heteronormativity'. That is my position. How we feel about people and ideologies are two different things.

[TE44]

Hi niledynodely, I have just googled gay conversion therapy, I didn't realise that was offered as a treatment, I have neverknown anyone who has been or spoke about this. I do know people who have had a response by family , where they have suggested goiing to the doctor when they have told them they are gay. It was a long time ago and may still be the response by some. Where is this therapy offered? After googling I see Boris Johnson has mentioned it, speaking of banning it. I honestly did not know it existed.

[TE44]

Just spoke with my friend and she has told me about gay conversion therapy, I absolutely agree it should be banned. She has not heard of it in this country, she said its used more in America. I would imagine this is a private treatment.

[seenbeen]

TE44 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Just spoke with my friend and she has told me

> about gay conversion therapy, I absolutely agree

> it should be banned. She has not heard of it in

> this country, she said its used more in America. I

> would imagine this is a private treatment.

I remember reading a couple of years ago about a pastor trying to convert a gay man in the street in Norwood but I cannot find a reference, but I did find this

https://premierchristian.news/en/news/article/london-church-denies-so-called-gay-conversion-therapy-after-undercover-news-report