Scotland - Independence Referundum

[El Pibe]

Murdoch is only in it for the money.

He doesn't really do politics ever, just politicians ;)

I see a murdoch affiliated company recently got drilling rights in the Golan, I alwyas wondered why his stuff was so pro netanyahu; suddenly made sense.

I'm guessing Salmond's offered him something.

[JohnL]

2 years ago Murdoch said he would move BSkyB HQ to Scotland if

business taxes were made low for him.

and this below - lobbying

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/304739-murdoch-denies-doing-deal-with-salmond-over-bskyb-takeover/

[El Pibe]

makes sense, and reinforces my idea of salmond as a man who'd sell his grandmother to further his dream of cementing his own ego in history.

[El Pibe]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/08/scottish-independence-david-cameron-no-campaign-windows-8

"In case bribery doesn?t work, some of the stars of Westminster are apparently going to tour Scotland giving speeches in favour of staying with the union, even though dispatching politicians to whip up support is the worst thing that could possibly happen, like turning a hose on a drowning man.

Nonetheless, Ed Miliband will visit Scotland to inspire people. To do what? Join Isis? Incredibly, he?ll be teaming up with Gordon Brown. Sitting through back-to-back speeches by Brown and Miliband is a challenge comparable to eating 15 sheets of cardboard with a heavy cold. "

[steveo]

I'm developing an irrational hatred of Salmond now

[LadyNorwood]

david_carnell Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Well on the presumption they join or remain in the

> Schengen agreement you wouldn't need a passport to

> cross the border.

>

> But I don't know the technicality of it beyond

> that.

>

> Would Scotland have a right of return for instance

> for the hundreds of thousands of people with

> Scottish ancestry to return "home"? Like a

> tartan-Israel.

At present the UK opts out of the Schengen agreement so even if Scotland opted in (would Scotland automatically have EU membership?) the rest of the UK might not??

[Otta]

According to some bloke on the radio the other day, it's a bit unclear. Because if Scotland joined the EU (which he was suggesting would sort of happen automatically) then the norm for a new member would be to adopt the agreement. But he seemed to think it wouldn't happen because of the unprecedented circumstances.

[LadyNorwood]

Otta Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> According to some bloke on the radio the other

> day, it's a bit unclear. Because if Scotland

> joined the EU (which he was suggesting would sort

> of happen automatically) then the norm for a new

> member would be to adopt the agreement. But he

> seemed to think it wouldn't happen because of the

> unprecedented circumstances.

Automatic membership of the EU is not a given - http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/juncker-no-automatic-eu-entry-for-scots.24715016

[jctg]

steveo Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm developing an irrational hatred of Salmond now

I'm developing a rational hatred of Salmond now.

[KirstyH]

Salmond is a v polarising figure but a 'brilliant' politician. On opening this (to check where we're all going to meet to watch the votes come in) I was struck by Mamora Man's original question - back in 2012 - about 16/17 year olds getting the vote. Watching the debate from down here, it's been the young people that have been asking the straightforward questions, as well as airing articulate reasons for their views. Politicians both sides would do well to answer those questions honestly instead of the boxing matches. The vote is an article of faith about what future you think you want and how you think this is best brought about. Its not anti-English at fundament.

On EU membership it's been tricky to get under the politics of Eurocrats who are airing opinions that are political agendas about what a Scottish yes vote would set off (eg re Spain) - you basically can't trust anyone in UK to give you a clear line of the steps required. Mark Carney today gave a fairly strong 'no' line compared to his quite helpful factual step-by-step overview of what currency union involves early in the year. The Canadians/CA media consistently call the independence movement for Quebec 'separatists' and refer to Scottish yes voters in the same way, you don't want to impute opinion on someone (oh go on then) but it's a massively political time to step in in such an influential position and set your concrete in the way he has, he's gone down several notches in my view.

I think the most interesting thing is that this is creating a huge discussion about power and politics in Scotland - kind of proper democracy rather than tired election voting. Its been the woeful 'national' media that have failed to clock this until Westminster woke up.

[StraferJack]

Yup!

[maxxi]

The 'Three Amigos' trip north convinces me the British Government has decided Scottish Independence is to be desired (by them) - nothing else I can think of is more likely to convince the unsure which way to jump.

Interesting to see how EDF-ers have maintained points of view on this three years on http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?20,664608,664608#msg-664608 and that some predictions made then reflect the "they'll never do it" attitude that the 'No' campaign has been criticised for relying on.

[Loz]

Given the number of sweeteners being bandied around now, a 'no' will see everyone else subsidising the Scots by a not insignificant amount.

My heart hopes they stay, but my head is starting to say, "goodbye, good luck and you can pay for it all yourself'.

[Huguenot]

StraferJack - "But that paragraph doesn't negate or qualify the one where you call yes voters dicks, does it?"

Except I never did. You're putting words in my mouth.

Stop being a prick.

[Huguenot]

KirstyH, under your veneer of sensible comment, you make some pretty ridiculous and unpleasant generalizations.

It's the most insidious behaviour.

"You basically can't trust anyone in the UK to give you a clear line of the steps required". WTF??

Membership of the EU is nothing to do with deception from the UK. It's a trading block that relies on political goodwill. Many of those nations have petty separatists, some violent, and the members may look poorly upon the idea of endorsing the Scottish proposal. There is NO clear outcome at this stage.

Your snot nosed swipe at the English is nothing more than a poorly disguised insult.

The niggle at Canada is winsome. Scotland is part of an existing state, and you want to be separate, because you feel it serves your interests. 'Separatist' is exactly what it means. It's what you are.

The 'factual' step by step approach to currency union is simply an attempt to disguise outcomes by process, and your attempt to claim that people are preventing this knowledge being shared is a deliberate misdirection.

I can tell by your tone that you're a bright cookie, so I will not attempt to indulge it as a misunderstanding.

The problem with 'currency union' is not that it cannot be enabled, but that the consequences of trying to run your economy on the decisions of a distant bank (whose priorities are elsewhere) is risible. Just ask Spain about Germany.

[StraferJack]

H - I can see what you wrote in black and white. In full context. And nothing you say, including name calling, changes that fact.

You do the full swagger, tell it like it is Huguenot thing and as soon as someone calls you on it you go into denial and start calling them names?

[Huguenot]

Haha - moderators playing politics and deleting posts?

[StraferJack]

God forbid you should ever admit to overstepping the mark. Moderators moderating more like it

"Playing politics". Honestly

[Huguenot]

I often overstep the mark - but frankly SJ you have have continually made claims that I have said things that I simply have not, despite being corrected you have repeated the claim.

This is a persistent smear. Nothing more.

I think I'm entitled to lose my temper?

Anyway, whatever.

[StraferJack]

For clarity, what exactly is the smear?

As I understand it, you posted a short post which characterised Yes voters as dicks. You claim I out words in your mouth and took it out of context

This is the post in question

http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?20,976551,1388140#msg-1388140

This is consistent with Huguenots earlier post in which he claims you would have to be a dickead to want to vote yes

http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?20,976551,1387551#msg-1387551

Am I smearing or am I being factual?

[StraferJack]

And when you say I am smearing you, nothing more, what about the lengthy full-on, over the top response to Kirsty which I note is also now removed. Do you think that was overstepping the mark or are moderators stil "playing politics"?

[steveo]

As long as it's words and not dicks in the mouth

[JohnL]

Wondered this when the flag publically fell off the pole in Downing St.

Goodbye and thank you it seems

us Welsh will fight tooth and nail for the NHS.

maxxi Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The 'Three Amigos' trip north convinces me the

> British Government has decided Scottish

> Independence is to be desired (by them) - nothing

> else I can think of is more likely to convince the

> unsure which way to jump.

>

> Interesting to see how EDF-ers have maintained

> points of view on this three years on

> http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?2

> 0,664608,664608#msg-664608 and that some

> predictions made then reflect the "they'll never

> do it" attitude that the 'No' campaign has been

> criticised for relying on.

[JohnL]

I wonder why older, more experienced people don't ask questions :)

KirstyH Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Salmond is a v polarising figure but a 'brilliant'

> politician. On opening this (to check where we're

> all going to meet to watch the votes come in) I

> was struck by Mamora Man's original question -

> back in 2012 - about 16/17 year olds getting the

> vote. Watching the debate from down here, it's

> been the young people that have been asking the

> straightforward questions, as well as airing

> articulate reasons for their views. Politicians

> both sides would do well to answer those questions

> honestly instead of the boxing matches. The vote

> is an article of faith about what future you think

> you want and how you think this is best brought

> about. Its not anti-English at fundament.

>

> On EU membership it's been tricky to get under the

> politics of Eurocrats who are airing opinions that

> are political agendas about what a Scottish yes

> vote would set off (eg re Spain) - you basically

> can't trust anyone in UK to give you a clear line

> of the steps required. Mark Carney today gave a

> fairly strong 'no' line compared to his quite

> helpful factual step-by-step overview of what

> currency union involves early in the year. The

> Canadians/CA media consistently call the

> independence movement for Quebec 'separatists' and

> refer to Scottish yes voters in the same way, you

> don't want to impute opinion on someone (oh go on

> then) but it's a massively political time to step

> in in such an influential position and set your

> concrete in the way he has, he's gone down several

> notches in my view.

>

> I think the most interesting thing is that this is

> creating a huge discussion about power and

> politics in Scotland - kind of proper democracy

> rather than tired election voting. Its been the

> woeful 'national' media that have failed to clock

> this until Westminster woke up.

[Mick Mac]

Newsflash 2020: Scots stuck on low road

Iain Martin

10 Sep 2014

Edinburgh, September 18, 2020: The sixth anniversary of Scotland?s historic vote to leave the United Kingdom passed off relatively peacefully in Edinburgh today.

Newsflash 2020: Scots stuck on low roadWhile demonstrators demanding a return to the Union had to be prevented by riot police from clashing with Nationalists outside the Scottish parliament building in Holyrood, elsewhere the anniversary offered a moment for quiet reflection on the consequences of Scotland voting in 2014 to go it alone.

From his retirement compound in the Outer Hebrides, where he was sent by the Scottish government following his replacement as First Minister in 2018, Alex Salmond issued a statement hailing ?Freedom Day?. He claimed that Scottish independence has ?not been as bad as everyone is saying?.

Government ministers, however, played down the anniversary, fearful that any worsening of already fragile market sentiment could jeopardise their bid to restore stability by joining the euro next year.

The new government in Edinburgh, a coalition of fiscal conservatives who were once members of the old pro-Union Tory party, and moderate nationalists who split with Salmond over his failed bid to make himself President for Life, is struggling to restore the Scottish economy.

It has been a rocky ride since voters decided in September 2014 to break with the UK, with the country still mired in the slump that followed the Yes vote six years ago.

The shock referendum result triggered an economic crisis. It had been presumed throughout the campaign to save the UK that the Union was safe. But with only ten days to go, the polls crossed and Alex Salmond?s Yes campaign gained momentum. A last-minute offer of greater devolution, announced by the UK chancellor George Osborne, was seen as a cynical Westminster response to the change in the opinion polls and it angered just enough Scottish voters to tip the scales against the Union.

The morning after the knife-edge vote - 50.5% to 49.5% - sterling crashed. UK prime minister David Cameron sacked Osborne and convened emergency meetings with the Governor of the Bank of England in an unsuccessful bid to calm the markets.

Any hope of stability was dashed by Salmond?s confrontation with Cameron over the UK debt, despite calls for restraint by many of the leading figures in the failed No campaign, who switched sides in the days after the result. Gordon Brown, Alistair Darling, Douglas Alexander and a host of other senior Scottish figures from Labour, the Tories and the Lib Dems promised to ?go home? to help ensure that Salmond did not attempt to dictate the new country?s constitution to his own advantage.

But Salmond, bolstered by his majority in the Scottish parliament, took full control of the talks with a weakened Cameron at Lancaster House in London. It had been claimed by the Nationalists ahead of the vote that Whitehall was bluffing when it said that there would be no currency union post-independence. It turned out that London had been telling the truth all along.

In response a furious Salmond held true to his pledge not to honour any of the UK?s ?1.4 trillion debt. The Nationalists were jubilant, declaring that Scotland was now ?debt-free?. But the markets did not fancy ?kilt-edged? debt much, and the Scots soon found themselves after Independence Day in 2016 being charged a large premium to borrow.

The Scottish economy has also been hit by the departure of many leading financial institutions. Most Scottish banks - owned by the Rest of the UK taxpayer ? have moved almost all of their remaining operations out of Scotland. After shifting its headquarters to London, the state-owned RBS renamed itself NatWest and offered to sell the Scottish government its branches in Scotland under the old Royal Bank of Scotland brand. A bank with the word Scotland in its name had little resonance in England following the twin blows of the financial crisis of 2008 and the Scottish vote to leave the UK.

Standard Life, with most of its customers based in England, also left. In Scotland capital flight and a ballooning deficit meant public spending cuts and much higher taxes, which annoyed both those who had been promised a socialist paradise and those assured by Salmond that he would run a government dedicated to promoting wealth creation.

Since independence both Scotland and the Rest of the UK have been starved of foreign investment, which has been scared off by the protracted uncertainty about their relations with the European Union ? fears that Scotland would not get in and the Rest of the UK was about to get out. Salmond?s assumption that EU entry would be almost automatic proved wrong, as EU leaders fearful of encouraging separatist movements in their own countries raised endless obstacles to Scottish accession. Meanwhile English nationalists campaigned hard to leave.

Only a Scottish pledge to abandon Scotland?s own hastily established currency and to join the euro clinched admission. Meanwhile, Boris Johnson, the Rest of the UK Prime Minister, secured only very limited Eurosceptic concessions in a renegotiation with Brussels. He has promised a referendum on EU membership next year.

Anglo-Scottish hostility was exacerbated by the English drought in summer 2018. As much of England sweltered in unprecedented temperatures the Scottish government was accused of attempting to blackmail the government in London. English water supplies ran low while Scottish reservoirs overflowed thanks to another typical summer north of the border. Then Salmond tried to charge sky-high rates when he was asked to send emergency supplies.

Amid anti-Scottish protests south of the border, a special ?Mock the Weak? tour of England by Scottish comedian Frankie Boyle, in which he jeered that independence had been a ?Highland Spring? and doused his English audiences with bottled water, had to be cancelled.

The latest governments in Edinburgh and London have moved recently to try and improve relations. There is an acceptance that trade links need to be rebuilt and cultural ties strengthened in the 2020s. Johnson recently sent Nigel Farage, the Rest of the UK Foreign Secretary, on a peace mission. Following a visit to an Edinburgh pub, Farage offered to re-open Hadrian?s Wall and relax passport checks.

The greatest irony of the entire independence experiment so far may soon be provided by oil, on which the SNP promised independent Scotland?s fortunes would be based. True, the fall in price as ever more shale gas came on stream was reversed by Islamic State?s conquest of Baghdad, which choked off Iraqi exports. But there has been growing resentment in England as it became clear how badly Scotland taking 90% of the UK?s oil had affected the Rest of the UK's balance of payments ? and Scotland may soon know how it feels.

Next month the Shetland Islands vote on whether to leave Scotland by Christmas 2020. If the Shetlanders do vote to go, a large part of Scotland?s remaining oil reserves will go with them.