Scotland - Independence Referundum

[Otta]

Irrelevant to the debate, yes.

But then again, we're all irrelevant to it because we don't get to play any role, we just get to watch and hope that whichever way they go we don't come out of it badly.

We can have discussions and debates, it's all irrelevant really.

[StraferJack]

But why would we come out of it badly? I can imagine as many positives as negatives. Why focus on negatives?

[LadyNorwood]

Apologies if this point has been covered before, but on the subject of passports - if there is a Yes vote, what would qualify one as Scottish? I quite relish the thought of GQ's Philanthropist of the Year having to apply for a Scottish passport and then requiring a visa to enter the remainder of the UK, oh to be a fly on the wall in that interview room...

[david_carnell]

Well on the presumption they join or remain in the Schengen agreement you wouldn't need a passport to cross the border.

But I don't know the technicality of it beyond that.

Would Scotland have a right of return for instance for the hundreds of thousands of people with Scottish ancestry to return "home"? Like a tartan-Israel.

[MrBen]

Basically....and from what I have seen they haven't worked much of it out yet....its all hypothesis and sketches based on the limited research resources that have been assigned both sides to date.

As an expat Scot with an appreciation of the many nuances here, it's interesting to see different reactions on here to what's happening from varying perspectives; the English, a fellow expat Celt and an unfortunate quote from our Singaporean chum about "slack jawed ingrates". I could get started but...with a UK corporation tax level of 28% I've got work to do.

[Marmora Man]

Have just been searching EDF for a B&B fir a nights stay to visit sons (their flats too small to accommodate Dad).

Took a nostalgic look around and pleased to find one of my threads still running. Can't resist a comment:

I do not, cannot and would not want, to make a case against the emotional draw of "Scottishness" and thus a vote for independence. There's always been a small part of me that has been jealous of the Scots or the Irish or even the Welsh for having a glorious and emotionally satisfying heritage - kilts, swirling bagpipes, misty glens, craggy highlands and so on - all I've got as a mongrel Englishman is bloody Morris Dancing and warm beer.

However, the Scots with England and Wales have been a nation for 407 years and a Union for over 300. To break that successful partnership up is, for me, just wrong. The argument central to the SNP seems to be - lets get rid of those nasty, usually Tory, Westminster politicians who have been so horrid to us. It's become a nasty chippy campaign - long on rhetoric and (very) short on facts.

The timing of the independence vote coming, as it does, after 6 years of post recession austerity makes it easy to criticise Westminster polticians and much of the argument seems to be that Scotland would have been better if it had not been linked to UK. However, "wee Eck's" history as a master politician and economic forecaster is pretty weak too, remember his proposed "arc of prosperity" with Ireland and Iceland?

The UK is, essentially, a provident organisation. We all contribute and we all take out - after all Scotland joined the Union to gain access to English overseas markets and counter the losses to Scotland of the failed Darien Scheme. (England wasn't being simply magnanimous - it wanted Scotland in a Union to bolster a Protestant monarchy). I don't agree Alex Salmond's analysis of the economics, but even if he were right about Scotland having a better per head GDP than the rest of UK his proposal to ring fence his part of the country and argue that it's income can only be used for itself is to go against the original concept of the Union. If that selfish argument were to prevail then London would secede taking 35%, or more, of the UK economy with it, East Dulwich would secede from Southwark, Marmora Road from East Dulwich. Selfishness never looks good. What would happen to the deprived areas of UK in that case?

I still visit Scotland regularly and have classic "taxi driver" discussions - the last taxi driver told me ( in June) "every time I see that Alec Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon I want to give them both a slap" - that's the spirit!

Brother, I don't want a divorce

Cheers to all & sl?inte mh?r

[StraferJack]

How lovely to hear back from MM - good post too

[Huguenot]

"In Huguenots world, only dicks vote yes."

I think that's what Otta means by putting words in people's mouths. I didn't say only dicks vote yes, I said clearly that the majority of people voting either way would be insufficiently informed to make a decision.

The 'dicks' in this case described those peddlers of bullshit and nonsense willing to deceive the electorate with populist crap.

"If that wouldn't want to make you vote yes.... "

That's exactly what I mean by petty.

It is shocking that almost 500 years of mutual history and 300 years of union could even be considered to be disposable on the basis that a self seeking nationalist leader was described, perfectly accurately, as a dick.

The vote has no place in the hands of people who would draw such conclusions.

This observation remains equally valid for an electorate who would even consider such a decision on the basis that they don't like the Tories (a party, don't forget, that has NO majority south of the border either). This is stupid little children stamping their feet, not national ambition.

"Slack jawed ingrates" was a reference to people the world over who trash talk their own nation in spite of all evidence to the contrary.

The world has seen a recession, the population is getting older, there is a pensions time bomb, healthcare costs are rapidly exceeding the ability of the electorate to fund them, and you can't give free education to your own kids when you're an individual member of the EU.

That's the world - it's not some petty bullshit about not liking the Tories, and it won't get solved by jacking in 500 years of shared endeavour.

[Huguenot]

I notice, incidentally, that the pound is in free fall.

This is a situation that will raise investor doubts, increase the cost of lending, reduce business investment and drive the UK into a second recession probably lasting two or more years.

Anyone who thinks that the short sighted male posturing of the Scottish separatist pathology is a harmless indulgence is woefully blind to the consequences.

[????]

but huge swathes of the election vote on 'not liking the tories' whatever the realities of the world - it's a significant part of the 'progressive' brand/persona etc

[StraferJack]

Huguenot's original post: "I don't think I had any particular expectations of the outcome - apart from that whatever the outcome it wouldn't be for the right reasons. My cynical side says the dicks will win, the eternal optimist tells me the arguments will win out, my rational self tells me just to wait and see"

Huguenot today: " I didn't say only dicks vote yes, I said clearly that the majority of people voting either way would be insufficiently informed to make a decision. "

Again, if I'm misreading or putting words in your mouth - apologies. But I can't read your original line and read it any other way, even now

Is there a way of reading your original post that allows for a yes vote but voted for by non-dicks?

[????]

Darling (not Alastair)economist of the left's views..

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/08/opinion/paul-krugman-scots-what-the-heck.html?_r=1

[jctg]

Well said Marmora Man.

[Huguenot]

Read it here StraferJack, not 50 words from the out-of-context quote you are waving in order to pillory me:

"I think I've been pretty consistent in my disdain for government by plebiscite. We have representative democracy because the avaerage guy in the street is simply not sufficiently informed to make a valid decision. It applies in this case." [sic]

[StraferJack]

But that paragraph doesn't negate or qualify the one where you call yes voters dicks, does it?

[Otta]

"My cynical side says the dicks will win"

I read that as "My cynical side says Salmond will win".

I think Nigel Farage is a dick, but if I said a similar sentence about UKIP, I wouldn't mean every UKIP voter is a dick (this would be different if we were talking BNP).

That said, I personally think Salmond is a dick of the highest order so I could be projecting.

[StraferJack]

This conflation of yes votes/left/anyone but Tories needs spiking too.

I see @GuidoFawkes is now a Yes supporter. Rupert Murdoch, Louise Mench, Brian Souter...

[Loz]

Strangely, I think the latest poll (showing the yes vote at 51%) is going to hurt the 'yes' vote.

A few weeks ago, voting yes was a harmless way to show Scottishness/stick it up the Tories/stick it up the English/whatever. Now 'yes' has a serious chance of winning, I think a lot of people will think twice.

[KirstyH]

Not quite following the last page or two of the thread, hopefully dicks is a kind of english irony instead of saying jocks.

More to the point does anyone know anywhere in ED, Peckers or the vicinity where we can watch the vote come in? Guessing it won't be an all-nighter unless they count really slowly just to draw it out.

[Townleygreen]

Loz, I hope you are right!!

[maxxi]

Peckers?!??

[El Pibe]

"I see @GuidoFawkes is now a Yes supporter."

reason enough to vote no right there

[StraferJack]

such "petty" thinking EP ;-)

mensch was a no voter until she saw where Murdoch was heading

Anyway i was only making the point that the Yes campaign isn't merely a lefty anyone-but-tories argument. It's that kind of point-scoring lazy assumption that is hardening some of the undecided in Scotland I reckon

[El Pibe]

So masses of Ulster orangmen descending on EDinburgh to march in favour of the no vote.

So game over then!!!

[JohnL]

Brown now 'leading' NO he doesn't have any axe to grind :).

Murdoch might have an axe to grind too. Scores to settle.

?Scottish independence means huge black eye for whole political

establishment, especially Cameron and Milliband ?

There are grudges here - it could go on and on.