Scotland - Independence Referundum

[????]

Fundamental changes ahead.

A potential scenario - labour get a majority of 20 at next election with a Manifesto commitment to raise upper rate taxes to 50% - lefties dancing in the street. Scottish MPS (29ish Labour) with scotlands independent and separtae tax raising powers won't(and shouldn't)be allowed to vote on this - English MPs defeat the govt.

[miga]

.

[Lynne]

No more Alex Salmond. What a wonderful thought

Why don't the English get a referendum about what they want?

[El Pibe]

"No more Alex Salmond."

I believe he is still first minister of Scotland, lest I'm mistaken?

[????]

miga Wrote:

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> Labour's calculation in support of the union is

> easy to understand.

> What was in it for the Tories? Apart from

> preventing Cameron's heartbreak, that is.

Because the despite the relentless propoganda on their nastyness etc the tories have principles and believe that the union is and has been a good thing - above political expediency...just possibly

[Louisa]

A comfortable victory for the union in the end. Any less than 55% would have raised questions.

Louisa.

[miga]

.

[El Pibe]

If anything I hope this has given the cynics and the conspiracists an insight not only how democracy works, but that democracy *works*.

Scots vote nationalist party into power, westminster goes, fair cop guv, have your vote, scots vote to stay, showing that the nationalists were voted in on a broader agenda than the nationalist agenda (a lesson sinn fein could do with learning here).

I'm sick to death of hearing that the government is a front for corporate interests and evrythings a plot to keep rich people in power and control the masses.

Quick lesson, the governemtn is the one the people voted for, it serves the interests expressed by that vote.

Just because its not the govt you want doesn't mean its not the govt the country want.

If you tell me they were voted by a minorty because of voter apathy then the onus is on you to persuade the people who dont vote to vote in their interests, or stand for the interests you think they want and talk to them.

Democracy, it lurches, it's a bit lowest common denominator, it appeals to people's (not corporations) selfish interests, it works!!!

[El Pibe]

> > > Labour's calculation in support of the union

> is

> > > easy to understand.

> > > What was in it for the Tories? Apart from

> > > preventing Cameron's heartbreak, that is.

> >

> >

> > Because the despite the relentless propoganda

> on

> > their nastyness etc the tories have principles

> and

> > believe that the union is and has been a good

> > thing - above political expediency...just

> > possibly

>

> A major party acting out of principle and not

> political expediency or vested interest, you say.

>

> It's possible.

Ooh look another cynic. of course expediency is hand in glove with politics, vested interests less so, though its there.

A politicians real vested interests are in making their voters happy (that they probably dont care about other voters might speak volumes about this govt's actions).

I think this is one of the most principled governments we've had in my lifetime. I may not like those principles but by god they have driven policy!!!

[*Bob*]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Because the despite the relentless propoganda on

> their nastyness etc the tories have principles and

> believe that the union is and has been a good

> thing - above political expediency...just

> possibly

Happily for the Cons political expedience and principle are the same on this. Chicken / Egg.. who's to say?

Anyhoo, this could come out well for the Cons. The Union is saved - and there's also perfectly decent reason to do away with those pesky Scottish Labour MPs when voting on English legislation. Bosh!

[Louisa]

I want to know if Nicola Sturgeon is going to get that independence bouffant hairstyle sorted now. The consequences of a NO vote are profound.

Louisa.

[El Pibe]

found this fascinating.

Nevis...really? My mum's from St Kitt's and Nevis, Nevis is basically a rock with a big village on it, i don't get the impression it's being crushed under the jackboot of St Kitts.

 

[miga]

.

[El Pibe]

the first one wasnt a reply, it was a rant prompted by yet another stupid captioned picture on facebook, we cross posted.

Apologies if you felt i was condescending, I've alot of respect for your opinions.

Of course i am sometimes condescending but it's mostly just ranty ;)

eta - "the spiritual and ideological vacuum of the government that preceded them." i may have to nick that and claim it as my own!!

[El Pibe]

>"My experience under multiple governments in multiple countries has taught me that self-preservation is the chief concern

>of people in power, and that people who seek these kinds of roles are by and large moral vacuums."

To an extent I think that's exactly why and how democracy works, to be relected you have to balance ideology with pragmatism. It's a necessary and self-interested check on power.

Its part of the reason why its hard for democracies to do anything about global warming while it still remains 'controversial'. It doesn't help when your environment minister doesn't 'believe' in it I guess :(

>people who seek these kinds of roles are by and large moral vacuums

The growth of the political class is a REALLY bad thing, absolutely. But I'm sure there are tons of people with great intentions or who enter it for the right reasosn. Maybe you just have to be a bit of a ruthless cunt to get anywhere near real power.

[Jeremy]

El Pibe Wrote:

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> "No more Alex Salmond."

>

> I believe he is still first minister of Scotland,

> lest I'm mistaken?

Spoke a bit too soon there!

[*Bob*]

Has he decided to join UKIP?

[Huguenot]

Phew, what a relief.

It sounds somewhat nasal and priggish in my head when it's put like that. But, well, what a relief. Bloody hell.

It's difficult to express the anxiety I felt about this whole destructive episode:

"The markers of Britishness for me include empiricism, irony, the ad hoc approach, pluralism, and a critical awareness of its own rich and sometimes appalling history. It?s sceptical, too: it has seen a thing or two and knows nothing lasts. But perhaps what recommends it most is the frail senescence that makes it an undemanding kind of belonging, and unexpectedly fits it for the modern world. The untangling of the institutions ? military, administrative, academic, ambassadorial, commercial, cultural ? that have sustained this identity can?t but be painfully destructive. The past 300 years have not been about nothing."

Modern Britishness is so vaporous. So poorly defined. So subject to the energy and visceral emotion of nationalism. So wispy in the face of economic imperative. But so damned important.

Twenty years ago I heard El Pibe describe the value of things that lay just beyond your reach - things that could never be defined or seized upon without their very essence slipping between your fingers. It has remained deeply engrained within my psyche.

"...a frail senescence..."

What powerful words.

Everything became petty about this Scottish independence campaign, compared with that frailty.

Battered by this oh-so-unsubtle separatist bullshit, bludgeoned by the small mindedness of UKIP, I hope that the intangible and indefinable joy of our national identity isn't lost to the small minded idiots who dance on portacabins.

[El Pibe]

excellent, life's work in tatters. has he decided to live in a tent in the forest with his anthropomorhic bird friends?

[El Pibe]

Did I? I had to look the word up. Senility has set in!!!

aah, that was from the above quote, ignore me....

[Otta]

El Pibe Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "No more Alex Salmond."

>

> I believe he is still first minister of Scotland,

> lest I'm mistaken?

Serves you right for being a smart arse ;-)

[Otta]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29277527

[Huguenot]

Haha, no EP, cannot quote you from twenty years ago!

Can only paraphrase a brief exchange and a marvelous mental photo of a prematurely wizened claw shaping your point with total clarity ;-)

[*Bob*]

Huguenot Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Twenty years ago I heard El Pibe describe the

> value of things that lay just beyond your reach -

> things that could never be defined or seized upon

> without their very essence slipping between your

> fingers.

Sounds like an excerpt from the 'Gladiator' script. You sure you're not getting mixed-up?

[KirstyH]

Crikey Huguenot, have we been living in the same country? Have you been to Scotland? Is it actually correct to describe it as 'oh-so-unsubtle separatist bullshit' debated by 'small minded idiots'? Do you really think that's what the Referendum was about? Surely the act of writing your final sentence is demonstrating the very opposite characteristics to the silvery set of words you quoted.

As for 'indefinable joy' frankly, the last two weeks have been a deeply unedifying exposure of political UK. The establishment came out with full, unsubtle, massively over-scaled artillery, to protect the status quo, largely because Cameron seriously under-estimated Salmond (yes, a polarising figure but love him or hate him an absolutely astute politician). It was Cameron that took 'devomax' off the referendum Q list to call Salmond's bluff.

What the 45% vote means that there is an appetite for something different, and don't assume Scots are all separatists, or stupid. There will be an interesting discussion about English governance as well. As for 'a frail senescence' - maybe in terms of some of the institutions of state that senescence is advanced and new kinds of democratic control will arise - city, local community etc. So what do you think? What do you think can be devolved to Scotland, or be established for England?

Really, the point that allows us to exist as a community, with varying views is that we are respectful, enquiring, and interested. As to undefinable Britishness - be careful that you are not actually trying to turn it into your own version.