Scotland - Independence Referundum

[StraferJack]

"I'm not involved in your little debate about the tories, "

I'm in a little debate about the tories? Your words, not mine

It might be an odd position to "be voting for something which seems so abstract, and in theory could end up being the opposite of what you dreamt of. "

but how many of us wish we were doing something ANYTHING different - even if we aren't sure where it would take us

This shakes up everything - to be against it (or worried about it) suggests (again, that word has meaning, which isn't YOU SAID - and I'm not saying you Otta - just the general tone of people who seem to be pisse doff with yes vote) people accept the status quo

And I don't know too many people who are overall happy with that

I'm by no means entirely a pro YES - on balance I would rather the union remain at the end of the campaign. But I do admire the chutzpah of a whole country (many of whom vote Yes AND hate Salmond) saying "why not?"

Does anyone not see any merit in that? No revolution, all democratic....

[maxxi]

Otta Wrote:

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> And I don't like all this "if you stay we'll give

> you this and that" either, it's stinks of

> desperation.

>

> If you go, then God speed and good luck. If you

> stay then we're all in the same boat. Why should

> anyone have their cake and eat it?

Have to agree.

And if it IS a yes vote I think the remaining British Public will be dead against any softening of the stance on currency etc. and will be very much in a "Right, well sod you!" frame of mind.

I'm not saying this is right (based as it may be on petty revenges arising from feelings of frustration and powerlessness/impotence throughout this whole process) but any party that promises to be uncompromising with the new Scotland would get a lot of support; which will be exactly what the hard-line nationalists have been counting on, i.e. "See? We telt ya they were bastards!"

[StraferJack]

The desperate plea-bargaining at the last minute by the govt shouldn't be used as a stick to beat Scotland - it's entirely panic stations.

Again, blame the govt for complacent attitude to let it get this far

If the british public get petty and hard-faced in the aftermath it would be ENTIRELY childish (but unsurprising - NOT team players (unless it's on their terms))

[Otta]

"but how many of us wish we were doing something ANYTHING different - even if we aren't sure where it would take us"

Lots of us I'm sure, but actually having a vote to allow you to jump in to the unknown? That is unusual and an odd position to be in.

That was all I was trying to say in my post. It was not a response or comment on any other posts on here, it was just me throwing a thought in to the ring.

My post was this.

Otta Wrote:

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> The thing that just seems to weird to me is that

> they're voting for little more than an idea. There

> are so many details that will need to be worked

> out and negotiated, they have no idea what they're

> voting for really.

Which was followed by this

StraferJack Wrote:

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> The sheer unmitigated condescension.

>

> "They have no idea what they are voting for"

>

> Suggests there is a we who do

>

> In Huguenots world, only dicks vote yes. If that

> wouldn't want to make you vote yes....

>

> So many people bitch and complain about whichever

> uk govt is in power. Yes the world is largely

> engaged in free market democracy. But surely only

> a blind man would say all successful countries

> practice it in the same way

Which suggested to me that

1. I was being accused of some unmitigated condescension (not an unreasonable assumption being as you started your post with it)

2. I was somehow agreeing with Huguenot, when I had made no reference to anything he wrote, or anything to do with either side of the argument. All I had talked about was the vote itself.

"I'm by no means entirely a pro YES - on balance I would rather the union remain at the end of the campaign. But I do admire the chutzpah of a whole country (many of whom vote Yes AND hate Salmond) saying "why not?"

And this is pretty much exactly how I feel about the whole thing, but you never actually asked me how I felt, you just, for some reason I'm not clear on, had a pop at my post. Which by the way I still think was pretty clear.

So you can say "I'm just asking questions, yada yada yada", but actually it might have been nice if you'd said "sorry otta if I misunderstood your post and accused you of unmitigated condescension when there was nothing of the sort in what you wrote".

Anyway, whatever.

[maxxi]

It'd be petty yes but not unexpected - no one outside Scotland has had a say in the break-up so the perception has always been 'they' get to decide whether they stay or go - whatever they decide the rest have to live with. This kind of enforced, by-standing impotence leads to a desire for payback - however childishly motivated.

The perception has also always been that the majority of the rest of the UK want Scotland to stay. Not sure if that is (ever was) the case.

[Otta]

StraferJack Wrote:

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> If the british public get petty and hard-faced in

> the aftermath it would be ENTIRELY childish (but

> unsurprising - NOT team players (unless it's on

> their terms))

Petty would be childish, but a bit hard faced would surely be sensible. If Scotland go it alone I wish them no ill, but I'd want us to come out of it as well as we possibly could.

[StraferJack]

Tis true that I responded stright after your post so I was summarising a bunch of other posts at the same time as quoting yours

i didn't mean to misrepresent yours alone, and I quoted yours about some specifics. But:

"The sheer unmitigated condescension. "

wasn't mean to refer to your post specifically - if that was what happened, I apologise

as for:

"actually having a vote to allow you to jump in to the unknown? That is unusual and an odd position to be in. "

Couldn't agree more - and the fact that that is true seems weird now it's in front of us. It's exhilerating - posssibly too much so.

But in the absence of any other counter-movements then I applaud it - I'm genuinely worried, fascinated, excited by what happens next

[Otta]

"I'm genuinely worried, fascinated, excited by what happens next"

Indeed.

It's like a huge anthropological experiment, except it's real and we're living it, or at least living with the effects.

[StraferJack]

"I wish them no ill, but I'd want us to come out of it as well as we possibly could."

Isn't co-operation and mutual respect the way forward - the idea that England might not come out of it well plays into the hand of people who think Scotland have been held to the yolk. Why wouldn't England come out of it well? What does England think it's losing out on?

How did we get from "Scotland will suffer if they vote Yes ! " (not your words otta, but the No campaign) to "well Scotland might do well but England won't play nice if it means losing out"

[maxxi]

StraferJack Wrote:

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> If the british public get petty and hard-faced in

> the aftermath it would be ENTIRELY childish (but

> unsurprising - NOT team players (unless it's on

> their terms))

Do you mean the remaining Brits (i.e. English, Welsh and N. Irish) minus the Scots? But surely that would mean they WERE team players - all pulling for 'new' Britain against a foreign power?

I'm kidding - it wouldn't solve anything and there will be a lot of under-the-counter deals done if change comes but I think there will be a lot of - what's the non-military equivalent of sabre rattling? Pen rattling (?) for public consumption - not wanting to be seen to give etc etc etc. A tedious and long process of bluster and bluff on both sides.

[StraferJack]

"Indeed.

It's like a huge anthropological experiment, except it's real and we're living it, or at least living with the effects."

that's good right? When we move in with a partner in our teens or 20s, we don't know what's going to happen. When we split up we don't know what's going to happen. But focusing on the negative is paralysis

If it happens, I wish them well and would no more vote to spite them than I would myself - why would I?

[StraferJack]

"A tedious and long process of bluster and bluff on both sides."

except as equals and not with such a loaded gun

[maxxi]

StraferJack Wrote:

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When we move in with a partner

> in our teens or 20s, we don't know what's going to

> happen. When we split up we don't know what's

> going to happen. But focusing on the negative is

> paralysis

That's when it's a decision 'we' make. Not one 'they' make alone - that's called being dumped and we all know how that feels! I expect we'll see the political equivalent of cutting up all the suits or scratching the car...

[????]

Unless you mean granting a referendum in the first place, blaming the govt is either playing politics or just plain stupidity FFS. I am sure David Cameron, Nick Clegg and George Osbourne would have really, really swayed lots and lost of scottish voters to stay with the rest of us given the popularity of the tories, the govt and english toffs north of the border.

Blame the No Campaign

[StraferJack]

I'm SURE if it happened on labour's watch, people would say give 'em benefit of the doubt, blame the No Campaign

the No Campaign have been poor, but they had massive support for their message when the yes vote was paltry. And they have been largely espousing the same messages as Tory/Lib/Lab governments for 30 years - that IS the problem and it is politics. It is the status quo. It is what people assume SHOULD be the reality

But enough people have taken agin it - that is genuinely fascinating

Labour will be stuffed in Scotland for a fair few years after this for throwing their lot in with the No campaign. And they won't get any benefit for doing it this side of the border.

the cards, are well and truly, in the air

[maxxi]

I don't think I've blamed the govt. - I just think, in the event of a yes vote, those who didn't get a say will feel 'dumped' and may not want the divorce to be an amicable 'let's stay friends' one - even if that is the preferable (only real) option so there will be posturing and table thumping as everyone compares nationalist creds.

[Otta]

StraferJack Wrote:

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> Isn't co-operation and mutual respect the way

> forward

It would be nice to think so.

- the idea that England might not come out

> of it well plays into the hand of people who think

> Scotland have been held to the yolk. Why wouldn't

> England come out of it well? What does England

> think it's losing out on?

I don't know. But there will be people sat at a table hammering stuff out, and I want our "side" to have a bloody good hammer if it comes to it, because if you go to a table without one, you're a muppet.

"It's like a huge anthropological experiment, except it's real and we're living it, or at least living with the effects."

that's good right? When we move in with a partner in our teens or 20s, we don't know what's going to happen. When we split up we don't know what's going to happen. But focusing on the negative is paralysis"

It's good yes, but it's also a bit bigger than us shacking up / breaking up wioth someone.

I'll be completely honest, the thing that scares me is simply finding that my taxes have gone up. I don't know if that would happen, but I don't know that it won't, and I'm not in a good place right now for my taxes to go up.

[????]

Yeah, but the con is that'll be the same 'old shit' economically afterwards (i.e. European style Austerity) - with less control on their affairs i.e. their currency, trading agreements, interest rates, etc

[StraferJack]

but Otta, that means your view is hardly objective. Why would taxes go up again? And if the ydo go up, would a cynical view be that a govt has done it because people expected it?

maxxi - "in the event of a yes vote, those who didn't get a say will feel 'dumped' and may not want the divorce to be an amicable 'let's stay friends' one -"

Hopefully you mean SOME people - Otherwise - those people are what's known as ill-informed and should be disagreed with. As someone who wishes the union remained, I wouldn't feel dumped. I would feel - wait, why are they doing this and are they benefiting? Why are they benefiting? And why can't we do the same (re: political decisions)? Why HAVEN'T we done the same before now?

[StraferJack]

"Yeah, but the con is that'll be the same 'old shit' economically afterwards (i.e. European style Austerity) - with less control on their affairs i.e. their currency, trading agreements, interest rates, etc"

that is a view and not an unlikely one. But maybe......maybe not

i wouldn't call it a con - but it is a disagreement on fundamental principle and it is democratic. Imagine if they forged an even SLIGHTLY fairer society, despite all the doom and gloom. That's something

the idea that the current status quo (in this country) is the MOST that could be hoped for is up for debate - and is being fought

[maxxi]

SJ - Ah, you mean sod them- "what's in it for me?"

[StraferJack]

Me?

No. A society being a much bigger group

[maxxi]

I was speaking of the 'collective' me (the Brits man, the Brits) - that you think their self interest should override other concerns and that it should come down to how we can come out of it well? That has an almost biblical ring about it - covet not thy neighbour's ox - just don't let it graze on your lawn.

ETA: well, not without sufficiently adequate grazing fees.

[Otta]

I'm objective about the whole thing, but surely I'm allowed to wonder if it might end up being bad for me.

I have no idea if it would affect my taxes, but I don't knowt that it won't.

[StraferJack]

Otta - course you are allowed to wonder. I wonder. And I have no spare capacity financially.But that really is irrelevant to the wider debate

Maxxi -

the No campaign try to espouse a collective "together is better " message whilst simultaneously sucking their collective teeth in about Europe

My reading of the yes vote is "happy to heave together, but in a different direction"