Scotland - Independence Referundum

[Louisa]

Manchester

Louisa.

[Otta]

El Pibe Wrote:

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> Otta Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Yeah but if we're including Scotland it needs

> to

> > be further north than brum I reckon.

>

>

> cos london's perfectly placed ;)

But that's the point. To a lot of northerners and certainly Scots, London is a far away place in the south that has nothing to do with their lives. If we were going to have a new capital it should be somewhere more central to the whole island.

[????]

Rutland would shorely be up for it

[maxxi]

All Government business and parliament etc should be moved to Coventry if only so we can do weak jokes about Ministers being sent there. There's plenty of room now the motoring industry has been eradicated and then London could relax and enjoy its status as the 'New York' (or Sydney?) of the UK - all the fun and none of the yawn. Let's see MPs insisting on maintaining flats THERE.

[El Pibe]

^^

[Huguenot]

I think this thing is so tiresome because the 'Yes' campaigners are demanding an independent 'state' (administrative area) on the basis that they are an independent 'nation' (people).

The establishment of an independent state in the modern era is clearly something only a dickhead would lay claim to. We are heavily interdependent for every economic function of modern society, but more importantly we have a finite supply of resources and a shared environment for which we are compelled to both collaborate and act in union globally. The UK isn't big enough to act independently, so the notion that teensy tiny Scotland is better off is plain stupid.

The idea of a Scottish 'nation' is no less stupid. We are gratifyingly interbred around the world, not just within Britain - so there exists no blood line to side with in a Dan Brown gene pool.

Unless part of the independence campaign is to deliver Iran style media control there is no cultural independence as a people either.

So then the whole 'Yes' campaign boils down to witless crapulence from small minded twats without an intelligent thing to say blarting out nonsense to the vacillating electorate.

The worst thing about democracy is the people who vote. Don't even get me started on them.

Singapore is currently judged to be the sixth best place to be born, and Australia the second. Speak to the locals and you'd be convinced that both countries were a living hell.

On that basis, conclusions about whether any nation, even Scotland, would be better off alone should not be delivered by the slack jawed ingrates who populate the place.

It is entirely possible that Scotland will be 'split' post referendum, but it won't be between the 'yes' and 'no' voters - it will be between intelligent perceptive progressive thinkers, and moronic tossers (see Sean Connery).

[steveo]

Like

[StraferJack]

See what happens when a country engages in politics?

Expats from half way around the world who assumed all along it was nothing get all righteous when it turns out they don't behave as expected.

Even if the whole things turns to dust, I admire the scots for saying we can do better than this. Pundits and chatterers alike have bemoaned voter apathy for years. The political consensus is, for better or worse, being questioned

Career politicians are shaken and are having to think harder

I would have thought people like Huguenot would have applauded this

[????]

they are emotionally engaging with a false narrative......people should gather some facts and learn some history, i think that's where Huge despairs with democracy

[Huguenot]

I don't think I had any particular expectations of the outcome - apart from that whatever the outcome it wouldn't be for the right reasons. My cynical side says the dicks will win, the eternal optimist tells me the arguments will win out, my rational self tells me just to wait and see.

Career politicians are transitory - a decision like this should be about the good of the nation, not crowing over a slap in the face for politicians we don't like.

It is shocking that voters are swayed by such petty justifications.

I think I've been pretty consistent in my disdain for government by plebiscite. We have representative democracy because the avaerage guy in the street is simply not sufficiently informed to make a valid decision. It applies in this case.

[jctg]

I'll cut and paste this from Comment is Free on the Guardian website cuz it sums up what I think.

To a Yes voter:

"You can indulge your naive fantasies about independence bringing about some kind of 'radical' or 'progressive' overhaul of the entire political and economic system if you like, but the reality is that Scotland will continue to have the free market economy that the rest of the democratic western world has, and will continue to be controlled by establishment party political pro-big business, pro-one percent parties like the SNP."

[steveo]

It seems to me that this is less about unlinking from England so much as it is an expression of hatred of the Tories and London.

It's OK to hate the Tories but not the other bit

[jctg]

It seems to me that this is about blaming Westminster/London/England for all your troubles. Just like UKIP blame Brussels...

[right-clicking]

If they do succeed in dividing the nation I think we should then rebuild Hadrians wall, Keep the Sassanaks and Picts apart forevermore....

[Otta]

The thing that just seems to weird to me is that they're voting for little more than an idea. There are so many details that will need to be worked out and negotiated, they have no idea what they're voting for really.

[StraferJack]

The sheer unmitigated condescension.

"They have no idea what they are voting for"

Suggests there is a we who do

In Huguenots world, only dicks vote yes. If that wouldn't want to make you vote yes....

So many people bitch and complain about whichever uk govt is in power. Yes the world is largely engaged in free market democracy. But surely only a blind man would say all successful countries practice it in the same way

[Otta]

StraferJack Wrote:

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> "They have no idea what they are voting for"

>

> Suggests there is a we who do

No it doesn't. It suggests that "they" are a group of people of whom I am not one.

Otta Wrote:

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> There are so many details that will need to be worked

> out and negotiated

Yeah, and that's me saying that "we" know it all.

I wasn't getting involved between you and Huguenot, I was just making an observation that it seems odd to me that people are getting to vote for something but don't know what that something might end up looking like.

[Otta]

And your habit of putting words in to people's mouths like you just did, really grates.

[Otta]

And I don't like all this "if you stay we'll give you this and that" either, it's stinks of desperation.

If you go, then God speed and good luck. If you stay then we're all in the same boat. Why should anyone have their cake and eat it?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29099431

[Otta]

StraferJack Wrote:

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> The sheer unmitigated condescension.

>

> "They have no idea what they are voting for"

>

> Suggests there is a we who do

And if I was Scottish I'd be saying

"We have no idea what we are voting for"

FFS you've really wound me up there, that is the very very bloody worst of you!

[StraferJack]

"And your habit of putting words in to people's mouths like you just did, really grates."

How did I do that exactly?

I quoted you saying

"They have no idea what they are voting for"

and I wondered what that meant - I didn't put words in your mouth. That's what you wrote

Why would you say that other than differentiation? IF none of us have any idea, then why care about the Yes vote at all?

[StraferJack]

Basically, here is a government so disliked, the managed to (tbc) lose Scotland from the union

Rather than berate Scottish people as dicks (love ya H) maybe look at that

[Otta]

StraferJack Wrote:

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> The sheer unmitigated condescension.

>

> "They have no idea what they are voting for"

>

> Suggests there is a we who do

You're telling people that I am suggesting something. That in my book is putting words in my mouth which I then have to come and put right.

You've also just used one part of my post to suggest that I am being condescending, when if you read my post as a whole I don't think it is at all.

[Otta]

StraferJack Wrote:

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> Basically, here is a government so disliked, the

> managed to (tbc) lose Scotland from the union

>

> Rather than berate Scottish people as dicks (love

> ya H) maybe look at that

I'm not involved in your little debate about the tories, neither am I calling anyone dicks.

I am merely saying I think it's an odd position to be voting for something which seems so abstract, and in theory could end up being the opposite of what you dreamt of.

Just an observation.

[StraferJack]

"You're telling people that I am suggesting something."

I'm not telling people anything (remember you seem to dislike people putting words in mouths?)

As I've said I'm giving my interpretation - you have already contested it and that's fair enough. So I already asked "Why would you say they don't know what they are voting for?"

If I have the interpretation wrong, what DID you mean? If they don't know what they are voting for (and nor do we?) then what's the problem? I'm asking questions not putting words in your mouth?

The condescension thing goes way beyond anything you posted - it's H saying thing like people being dicks for voting Yes