More ?Permeable Barriers?

[Bagpipes]

Very good question, Ossito. Also what does it mean in health terms to a) marginally decrease legal air quality on some roads and b) increase pollution on already illegally polluted main roads. Is it linear?

>

> Even if the schemes do achieve their long term

> ambition, has the council adequately assessed the

> short term risk to children?s health in these

> locations?

[Serena2012]

I just took a short stroll to observe the road blocks. It seems the middle planter has had to come out on all 4 roads, only to be replaced by removable plastic barriers.

I can only imagine that this is because some bright spark suddenly realised that blocking off all access between Grove Vale and EDG other than the Goose Green roundabout, thereby significantly increasing emergency vehicle response time to all roads branching off EDG might be slightly idiotic.

It just goes to show how ill thought through these closures have been. Even as things stands, faffing around with plastic barriers will invariably lose valuable, potentially life saving minutes. These closures are hugely disproportionate in circumstances where school streets would be a far better compromise. Put simply, they need to go.

[FairTgirl]

Amen! As posted elsewhere it really does prove how little thought has indeed gone into this to not even account for emergency vehicle access.

[tiddles]

This was exactly my thoughts serena! I have been informed by a councillor that the emergency services were the first to be consulted and they had no issues with the proposals - perhaps they thought they would still have access? Who knows but this has been me ?beef? since sitting in a stationary south circular when 3 emergency vehicles were trying to get thru. Everyone pulled up on the pavements

[Melihoople]

It was a disturbing feeling walking down grove vale with heavy traffic and listening to children playing in GG school. Are they still monitoring pollution levels?

[Rockets]

tiddles Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> This was exactly my thoughts serena! I have been

> informed by a councillor that the emergency

> services were the first to be consulted and they

> had no issues with the proposals - perhaps they

> thought they would still have access? Who knows

> but this has been me ?beef? since sitting in a

> stationary south circular when 3 emergency

> vehicles were trying to get thru. Everyone pulled

> up on the pavements

Emergency vehicle access was the downfall of the Loughborough Junction debacle and I wonder whether they have spoken their mind when they have seen the closures in that part of East Dulwich. Or maybe the council came unstuck with the plan to reverse bin lorries down each of the roads - can't imagine an HSE risk assessment of that would have been too favourable.

Maybe the council are beginning to realise this is rushed and there are some significant negative consequences of that they are doing. The obsession with preventing east/west car journeys across the area may well prove to be the downfall of all of these plans. Some of them, in isolation, do make sense but collectively it is a recipe for disaster.

[march46]

Serena2012 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I just took a short stroll to observe the road

> blocks. It seems the middle planter has had to

> come out on all 4 roads, only to be replaced by

> removable plastic barriers.

>

> I can only imagine that this is because some

> bright spark suddenly realised that blocking off

> all access between Grove Vale and EDG other than

> the Goose Green roundabout, thereby significantly

> increasing emergency vehicle response time to all

> roads branching off EDG might be slightly idiotic.

>

>

> It just goes to show how ill thought through these

> closures have been. Even as things stands, faffing

> around with plastic barriers will invariably lose

> valuable, potentially life saving minutes. These

> closures are hugely disproportionate in

> circumstances where school streets would be a far

> better compromise. Put simply, they need to go.

I asked the council about them being moved today and it's to do with access for waste vehicles. Emergency services weren't mentioned.

[first mate]

?asked the council about them being moved today and it's to do with access for waste vehicles. Emergency services weren't mentioned?.

Really, you couldn?t make it up!!

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

To be fair, a lot of people have been making a lot of stuff up on this very thread.

[Serena2012]

Ridiculous queues on EDG yet again this morning. They were all the way down to the hospital at 9.20am. How is this acceptable?

[betternowthanthen]

Yes I saw the unnecessary excessive traffic...again....

[FairTgirl]

I would like to reiterate the below for those of you who believe in democracy and agree that people of East Dulwich should be consulted on these matters first.

Please sign our online petition, and email your local councillors to express your views. You can also express your views on the specific road closures via an app I have copied in below.

Please show us your support if you can. There are peoples livelihoods and health at stake.

Please Follow us on twitter @GroveReopen and please retweet our tweets to any local journalists

Petition

[chng.it] to sign the petition.

You can also voice your views here

Streetspace East Dulwich : [eastdulwichstreetspace.commonplace.is]

Email your councillors below;

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

and

[email protected]

[email protected]

[creditwheredue]

Serena2012 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Ridiculous queues on EDG yet again this morning.

> They were all the way down to the hospital at

> 9.20am. How is this acceptable?

I left my house to walk to the station at that time yesterday and couldn?t believe how empty EDG, I crossed without breaking stride.

[Serena2012]

creditwheredue Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Serena2012 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Ridiculous queues on EDG yet again this

> morning.

> > They were all the way down to the hospital at

> > 9.20am. How is this acceptable?

>

> I left my house to walk to the station at that

> time yesterday and couldn?t believe how empty EDG,

> I crossed without breaking stride.

Credit - How fortunate you were. However, please don?t patronise those of us who are living this experience by claiming things aren?t really that bad. The reality is that before Southwark started closing roads at the end of June, the Northern section of EDG did not have an issue with idling traffic. It now does, for hours on end. The fact that you managed to cross EDG without breaking stride is of little consolation to me and my young children, who will no doubt have to deal with the potentially life long consequences of significantly worse air quality.

If you don?t believe me, take a look at the East Dulwich street space page. I am evidently not the only one who has noticed how much worse congestion on this road has become.

[betternowthanthen]

With all this terrible traffic, I bet Southwark did not monitor air pollution/traffic levels before the barriers were installed, and sure won't after the installation, and a reason would be that air pollution and traffic would be x2 or x3 worse in that area, such it takes at least x2 to get to A-B using those very useful and load baring roads!

[stecoward101]

You say "This is nimbyism in the extreme" at the same time complaining the cars will pass your front door. Surly that is nimbyism in the extreme.

[Pugwash]

Speaking about the closures to our local police officer, he was concerned that a normal 10 minute journey for the police took almost an hour. It would seem that the council did not consult Southwark Police about their schemes.

Our police officer is going to talk to his colleagues in Goose Green and Village wards as to their views about the traffic situation and the effect they are having on the emergency services.

[tiddles]

I was assured by a councillor that the emergency services were the first people to be consulted.

perhaps some wires have got crossed ? (I am being very diplomatic here)

[redpost]

Despite what people are saying/ranting on this forum, there are traffic measurement devices in place on all affected roads. I checked on my bike yesterday.

Pollution monitoring is expensive, the pollution levels can be extrapolated from the traffic volumes to a good enough degree and used in the modelling.

Modern cars have stop-start devices to kill the engine when staionary, hybrids of course emit zero pollution when stationary.

The ULEZ in one years time will see most cars being euro 4 (petrol) or euro 6 (diesel), I don't think a stop-start system is mandated for these euro emission standards, but most modern cars (post 2015) have stop-start as it does help the manufacturer meet the euro rating.

The relationship between idling and pollution is going to be complex. If road congestion is low, then motorists will tend to drive faster and brake more ... increasing the pollution emitted for a given distance driven.

betternowthanthen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> With all this terrible traffic, I bet Southwark

> did not monitor air pollution/traffic levels

> before the barriers were installed, and sure won't

> after the installation, and a reason would be that

> air pollution and traffic would be x2 or x3 worse

> in that area, such it takes at least x2 to get to

> A-B using those very useful and load baring roads!

[dougiefreeman]

redpost Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Despite what people are saying/ranting on this

> forum, there are traffic measurement devices in

> place on all affected roads. I checked on my bike

> yesterday.

>

> Pollution monitoring is expensive, the pollution

> levels can be extrapolated from the traffic

> volumes to a good enough degree and used in the

> modelling.

>

> Modern cars have stop-start devices to kill the

> engine when staionary, hybrids of course emit zero

> pollution when stationary.

>

> The ULEZ in one years time will see most cars

> being euro 4 (petrol) or euro 6 (diesel), I don't

> think a stop-start system is mandated for these

> euro emission standards, but most modern cars

> (post 2015) have stop-start as it does help the

> manufacturer meet the euro rating.

>

> The relationship between idling and pollution is

> going to be complex. If road congestion is low,

> then motorists will tend to drive faster and brake

> more ... increasing the pollution emitted for a

> given distance driven.

>

>

> betternowthanthen Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > With all this terrible traffic, I bet Southwark

> > did not monitor air pollution/traffic levels

> > before the barriers were installed, and sure

> won't

> > after the installation, and a reason would be

> that

> > air pollution and traffic would be x2 or x3

> worse

> > in that area, such it takes at least x2 to get

> to

> > A-B using those very useful and load baring

> roads!

Are you saying there is monitoring on Grove Vale, EDG, Lordship Lane, Townley Road, Dulwich Village or just the roads that have been closed? If so, where and what devices are they?

[redpost]

EDG, Grove vale, village way, dulwich village

they are the 2 x rubber tubes with a box, so far it look like they haven't been vandalised

they were also there weeks ago, but of course those got vandalised when someone got "frustrated"

[betternowthanthen]

redpost Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Despite what people are saying/ranting on this

> forum, there are traffic measurement devices in

> place on all affected roads. I checked on my bike

> yesterday.

>

> Pollution monitoring is expensive, the pollution

> levels can be extrapolated from the traffic

> volumes to a good enough degree and used in the

> modelling.

>

> Modern cars have stop-start devices to kill the

> engine when staionary, hybrids of course emit zero

> pollution when stationary.

>

> The ULEZ in one years time will see most cars

> being euro 4 (petrol) or euro 6 (diesel), I don't

> think a stop-start system is mandated for these

> euro emission standards, but most modern cars

> (post 2015) have stop-start as it does help the

> manufacturer meet the euro rating.

>

> The relationship between idling and pollution is

> going to be complex. If road congestion is low,

> then motorists will tend to drive faster and brake

> more ... increasing the pollution emitted for a

> given distance driven.

So you're saying Redpost that 100's very slowy moving idling enginesover longs periods of time as the direct consequence of these silly road closures of traffic of which will be dirty diesels with massive engines (bus/lorry/vans/trucks/skips/amazone delivery/trades\ec...) when idleing are less polluting than were as before they were freely moving about at 20 MPH and not concentrated dirty fumes in one very small compacted area of a busy high street and surrounding ares's of ED? No, No , and No sorry....no....

Not all car's are stop start even new ones. When hybrids have to accelerate for travel feet at time due to the road closures, they are defiantly emitting fumes when accelerating,not enough kinetic energy to harves energy at 5 feet a time over 100+meters. Same with buses. sorry not buying that sounds like a council point of view that to me...sorry it does.

Please we are the measuremeant devices you found and shared here?

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

northernmonkey Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I?ve set out on the petition thread that if these

> roads should be reopened, we should also open up

> all the closed off or restricted roads in East

> Dulwich to maximise driving ease...> Surely if all these closures were reopened then

> the gridlock in the area would disappear.

I don't know why you're being so unambitious. If we really want driving ease, we should start by getting rid of speed bumps (just leads to stop start driving), traffic lights (install roundabouts at every location), removing all bus and cycle lanes (more car space means more car speed, it's just common sense), remove at least one pavement from each road (more lane space - most of the time there isn't even anyone walking along pavements, what a waste), reopening Dulwich Park to traffic (there are perfectly good roads there and there would still be tons of green space to look at as you drove by), reducing bus frequency (I appreciate that old people and kids need to get around, but some of those buses take up as much room as three cars!), and raise speed limits to sensible levels. Barry Road, Burbage Road, Court Lane and Crystal Palace Rd could all be 50 mph zones with modern cars and brakes, especially if there were more railings to stop pedestrians blocking traffic.

[dougiefreeman]

Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> northernmonkey Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I?ve set out on the petition thread that if

> these

> > roads should be reopened, we should also open

> up

> > all the closed off or restricted roads in East

> > Dulwich to maximise driving ease...> Surely if

> all these closures were reopened then

> > the gridlock in the area would disappear.

>

> I don't know why you're being so unambitious. If

> we really want driving ease, we should start by

> getting rid of speed bumps (just leads to stop

> start driving), traffic lights (install

> roundabouts at every location), removing all bus

> and cycle lanes (more car space means more car

> speed, it's just common sense), remove at least

> one pavement from each road (more lane space -

> most of the time there isn't even anyone walking

> along pavements, what a waste), reopening Dulwich

> Park to traffic (there are perfectly good roads

> there and there would still be tons of green space

> to look at as you drove by), reducing bus

> frequency (I appreciate that old people and kids

> need to get around, but some of those buses take

> up as much room as three cars!), and raise speed

> limits to sensible levels. Barry Road, Burbage

> Road, Court Lane and Crystal Palace Rd could all

> be 50 mph zones with modern cars and brakes,

> especially if there were more railings to stop

> pedestrians blocking traffic.

Although perhaps a little tricky to locate amongst such virtuosic satire, you have actually made a rather sensible suggestion imo with regards to the removal of all speed bumps. The additional wear and tear on vehicles across the whole of london accounts for a huge level of unnecessary car part replacements every year. Just think of the environmental benefits of the mass reduction in production of tyres, brake pads / discs, gearbox and clutches, suspension parts and then of course the extra fuel burned as cars slow down and speed up repeatedly. That?s got to be worth a try right?

[stecoward101]

People did not go to the Pizza place anyway. I have walked past at 7:30 on a Saturday night and they have 1 table occupied. Eat out to help out' is the only time I have seen it busy in an age.