Does Britain still have a Class system ?

[Mick Mac]

Otta Wrote: -------------------------------------------------------> Once and for all, middle class and working class > DO NOT EXIST ANYMORE!!!!! > > And if they do, it's about your world view, not > your income.

Surely wealth created the original class system and income and class remain interlinked today.

"The precise characteristics of the classes in terms of occupations, educational experiences and work life experiences has shifted with the social changes of the late 20th century," Dr Atkinson will say.

"But the fact that some are better educated, with more choice in their lives and with more money still persists, and this maintains class differences that are as wide as they were in the 1970s."

[Huguenot]

There's clearly a disparity in income and opportunity across society, but I think that for taxonomy there would need to be clearly defined boundaries.

Certainly phrases like 'working class' wouldn't apply when unemployment is highest in this segment.

Likewise, save the royal family the 'landowning' upper class is no more - the largest land owning individuals now being a mixture of white collar workers and impoverished farmers, with significant proportions owned by corporations and institutions.

[LadyDeliah]

Ruling class and ruled class is probably more accurate, although the ruled can be sub-divided into among others, professional, semi-skilled, skilled and unemployed classes.

Marx defined the working class as those who don't own their means of production and sell their labour to those who own the means of production, while EP Thompson defined the class system more in terms of a persons relationship with power.

It looks like Cameron wants to take us back to the good old days of feudal landlords and serfs, thereby doing away with the working class altogether!

[Huguenot]

Haha LadyD, Marx would put every single self employed person (including yourself at some points in time) into the ruling classes.

Conversely EP Thompson would make every CEO the subordinate of their shareholders - more often than not the middle classes.

The old clich?s simply no longer apply.

[LadyDeliah]

I agree the past and present attempts to rigidly define what the various perceived classes might be, is flawed, but it is clear that there is a definite hierarchy and your chances in life/access to power over your own life etc are very much dependant on where you are in that hierarchy.

There also seem to be distinct rules and codes of behaviour attached to your position in the hierarchy, which can act as a way to exclude people who are not like you, unless like me, you don't give a toss and just do what you want anyway :-)

[LondonMix]

Interesting question. I have to say yes! Part of it has to do with the lack of social mobility combined with a strong sense of socially belonging to a certain class, which is more important than earnings as such. The socio-economic group called the "middle class" here tend to be defined as well-educated professionals that make a "comfortable" living but who still have to work to survive. They are also characterised by certain attitudes and expectations regarding behaviours etc- just look at the thread on people leaving rubbish on the street here on the forum! The gist is that given the products the offender used, s/he must be affluent and really should know better!

Class has always been a mix of specific economic circumstances and social background so I don't think any of that is new.

[zeban]

Completely agree LondonMix. Britain most certainly does still have a class system.

[????]

So outdated.

Sh111t , Race, ethnicity and even gender are where you see far more inequalities and clear differences. Even regionality is a better discriminator.

I know numerous people who are pretty indefinable class wise, including a few on here.

Millionaire builders from Essex accents who read the Times.

University educated postman with accountant dad, with 3 kids, in rented accommodation (incidentally one of the happiest people I know)

Two tube drivers on ?40K plus (both Hammers :)) one was a graphic designer the others a propa east London lad.

Marx's insights into the world are interesting and some still relevant (his soulutions foooking nightmare) but his cass analysis was even simplistic then. Add in the Underclass; the public sector (which other that the armed forces and the civil service to administer the Empire) didn't exist in Marx's day so where would all those employess fit in his hierachy.

So what are the discriminators? Income? Education (level and or private/state?) Newspaper Readership? Accent? Wether you say dinner or Lunch? Where you go on hooliday? what drugs you take? how you vote? etc etc

Lazy labelling, which I've personally enjpyed using numerous times on this forum :)

[Otta]

Exactly what Quids said.

Years ago, the rich went to uni, and had the big jobs, or money followed money and people were born in to it. The rest were the workers. That is history.

[????]

Just a simple illustration, the only two proper working class Prime Ministers* - Major and Heath, tory w*nkers :0

*Wilson at a push

[LondonMix]

I can't say how it is now vs how it was as I am not from this lovely island nation originally. Still, just because people at times move up or down a class, that doesn't negate that the labels are still meaningful to a lot people's way of thinking of themselves. Social mobility is really no where near high enough in the UK for class not to have any social / cultural traits. And that's my experience as an outsider. A lot of the Americans I know are really struck by this when they get here.

Edited to add: I agree though that money has less to do with it. A plumber making 75k a year probably would still not consider themselves middle-class culturally I think.

[MrBen]

What quids said (beat me to it).

It's clearly much more complex than that. The old notions just don't exist anymore and you have huge gaps widening in some contexts (eg unemployed Nigerian immigrant vs the newly moneyed emerging from the 80s) yet much more mixing between socio-economic groups in others. Definitely flatter in the new world countries - Canadian and Australian attitudes are often refreshing in how people mix and interact with each other.

Before he got all shirty about coathangers, I rather liked Ken78s definition which was something about curry and going down the dogs vs having a soiree. Then there was Rosieh's ketchup thing.

[MrBen]

Anyone on here had a soir?e lately? Own up....

[LondonMix]

I'm having one now :)

[DJKillaQueen]

'Social mobility is really no where near high enough in the UK for class not to have any social / cultural traits.'

This I totally agree with. But traditionally class in the UK has had more to do with cultural upbringing than wealth....although the two are often linked. This is why a person can acquire (or lose for that matter) great wealth but doesn't then become x class because of it.

[BB100]

Read 'Watching the English' by Kate Fox and find yourself there. I found it a very funny and thought-provoking read written by an anthropologist. She suggests that being English and a certain class has little to do with wealth or skin colour and more to do with behaviours, language and attitudes. Enjoy!

[Annette Curtain]

MrBen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Anyone on here had a soir?e lately? Own up....

I had a Latte earlier

Does that count ?

[Jessie]

i always thought I was middle class until i started reading the east dulwich forum

[indiepanda]

It's complicated. I was born into a working class family but then went to university (think am still the only one in my near family to get a degree) and then got a professional qualification afterwards which would make people consider me middle class, though I imagine a lot of my attitudes are shaped by my more modest upbringing.

I'm just glad I'm old enough that I got to go to university without having to take on huge debts. I know with hindsight it would have been worth it even at current fee rates to get the job I have, but it would scared the hell out of me and might have put me off from going.

[the-e-dealer]

Yes.

[Jeremy]

Surely all countries have social divides. It doesn't really matter whether you call it class or not.

[mrsS]

I am not from Britain but have lived in this lovely country over 10 years. I'd say that Britain still has a class system, very much so! I am from Sweden and have been told that I'll never be able to understand the whole 'class' thing, but do find it interesting.

Where I am from, I've never even thought much of people and what 'class' they belong to. Coming from a small town in Sweden, where no private schools exist, mixing with people from all backgrounds is what happens. I knew that some people had more money than others, and that some of my friends never went on holiday...but that was about it. We all just got along. I have friends from all backgrounds, some of them would be classed as coming from a working class background and some middle class, but I can't say I'd no the difference in how they behaved, spoke - or what prospects they had etc. Here in the UK things are a bit different. It's amazing how people judge one another from how they speak, what school they went to as kids, what they do in their free time etc. Intriguing, really.

[right-clicking]

Wheels within wheels,. The old school ties still opens doors.

We are judged by the the cut of your cloth

And the plumb in your throat

Dodgy handshake? You're hired!!

[LondonMix]

MrsS, I fully agree. From an outsiders perspective I think it's more striking -- I've also been here close to 10 years. There are social distinctions most places but here the idea of social-class (more than wealth) persists more strongly and with much more depth. Everything from the food you eat to the sports you watch / play, which supermarket you shop at to the way you speak to how you were probably educated feeds into it. I am sure its improving and has changed a lot compared to times gone by for all the reasons people have said but from an outsiders perspective it still makes an impression!

Also, not at my current firm, but during my time here in the UK, I have seen people turned down for jobs because of class background (though immigrants, particularly from the West, get a pass on this I find).

[Mick Mac]

Whilst "Class" seems to be an outdated (or at least less used) concept, socioeconomic status seems to be the modern equivalent and is consistent with what a few of you have said here, including LondonMix. It includes groupings of high, middle and low...

Socioeconomic status (SES) is an economic and sociological combined total measure of a person's work experience and of an individual's or family?s economic and social position in relation to others, based on income, education, and occupation. When analyzing a family?s SES, the household income, earners' education, and occupation are examined, as well as combined income, versus with an individual, when their own attributes are assessed.[1]

Socioeconomic status is typically broken into three categories, high SES, middle SES, and low SES to describe the three areas a family or an individual may fall into. When placing a family or individual into one of these categories any or all of the three variables (income, education, and occupation) can be assessed.

A 4th variable, wealth, may also be examined when determining socioeconomic status.