Relaxing/hardening of lockdown

[Spartacus]

D R

The report on the borders focuses on us NOT recognising the threat from Europe quickly enough when the UK was quarantining people from certain Asian countries.

Can you imagine the cry of "anti European government" if we imposed the same restrictions on countries like Spain in the early days of March ? Whilst it was a missed opportunity ,no other European country was restricting travel across the eurozone at that point, with the exception of regions in Italy.

Only recently when numbers of infected have gone up in Spain and travel has been restricted, the press cry "summer is ruined" (spinning bad news rather than talking about preventing a possible second wave)

Sadly there are arguments for and against total border controls during all stages of a pandemic but WHO failed to advise it was a pandemic despite every person and their dog seeing it so the warning flag from WHO wasn't raised fast enough to give governments the correct information to make an informed decision. What ever the government did factions would be against it and the press would spin bad news from it. So rather than us all pointing the finger at our government maybe we should all be asking for information on how the pandemic started and what needs to happen to stop the next one (a recent report that was on the television bbc2 last week I think, highlighted that along with SARS , this is the 4th major viral breakout in the last 20 years so no doubt another will occur)

Next time we and the rest of the world need to learn from this one and be ready.

[JohnL]

Spartacus Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> Next time we and the rest of the world need to

> learn from this one and be ready.

We did Exercide Cygnus in 2016 to help prepare but it just seemed to scare people into inaction (very old link back to march)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/03/28/exercise-cygnus-uncovered-pandemic-warnings-buried-government/

[Spartacus]

You're right JohnL but it's more about learning how to get the early warning up from WHO so governments can react faster, getting countries with outbreaks to recognise and report them faster (in this case China appears not to have informed WHO fast enough but that needs to be investigated and validated), what countries around the world need to do next time (is total border closing the correct path to take? What other measures are needed) and also how to stop an outbreak occurring in the first place wherever it occurs !

I think the exercise didn't focus on such a huge pandemic and centered around how the emergency services and hospitals would respond so from that and this pandemic lessons need to be learnt globally.

[uncleglen]

diable rouge Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> seenbeen Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Loads of people flouted the rules from day 1

> and

> > are STILL flouting the rules as the idiots

> seemed

> > to think (I wonder why???) that Dominic

> Cummings

> > gave them carte blanche to do just what they

> > liked.

>

> Care to quantify ''loads''? You're previously

> posted anecdotal 'evidence' of people walking

> around Lordship Lane is meaningless, you don't

> know why they were there or what they were doing,

> and begs the question why and what were you doing

> there?

> The overwhelming majority of the population

> adhered to the lockdown, while occasionally the

> press would zoom in on random cases of a couple

> sitting on a beach, or someone driving their car

> to go for a walk in a beauty spot, and so on. DC's

> eyesight test holiday stuck two fingers up to all

> those who had adhered to the lockdown, so although

> I agree with Spartacus' point about not 'jumping

> off the cliff' too, I can understand why many were

> angry enough to do so.

> None of this should distract, for that's what

> you're trying to do, from the Gov's failure to

> enforce a lockdown much sooner than it did after

> flip flopping from it's initial 'herd mentality'

> strategy. One of several reasons why this Gov has

> so much blood on its hands, and I see that another

> group of MPs has released a damning report of the

> Gov's shambolic role in this pandemic, and right

> on cue after my last post, it highlights the

> serious errors regarding border control and

> quarantining...https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-polit

> ics-53654644

the bbc ha ha ha- politics- ha ha ha full of half truths, lies by omission- much like the CNN version of the George Floyd event

[malumbu]

Ah my favourite posts, those that

> requote

Earlier >>> posts

so it looks like > a dogs ... dinner.

So what do you reckon to the current situation Uncle. I'm disappointed with some of the thoughts of the ED Guardianistas so would appreciate your more frank views.

Did BJ Bollox the whole thing up

Was it right to have an Independence Day yet a month later warn that we would go back to more severe lockdown

Is it all a conspiracy >>>>

[Spartacus]

Regardless of your views watch "surviving the virus : my brother & me" that was on bbc1 tonight

That will quash any thoughts about conspiracy and the end statement where doctors are afraid of the next wave will show why releasing lock down is such a tricky beast to manage.

[Blah Blah]

Agreed Spartacus. There are two worlds operating in parallel here. There is the front line, the hospitals and medical and care staff witnessing first hand the deaths and serious illness caused by this virus, and of course, the families and friends of those impacted by that. And then there is the other world that is protected from seeing any that first hand. The world that is ordered to lock down, asked to social distance and wear masks. And it is in that other world, you will find the naysayers, conspiracy theorists, unbelievers of course.

[uncleglen]

malumbu Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Ah my favourite posts, those that

> > requote

> Earlier >>> posts

> so it looks like > a dogs ... dinner.

>

> So what do you reckon to the current situation

> Uncle. I'm disappointed with some of the thoughts

> of the ED Guardianistas so would appreciate your

> more frank views.

>

> Did BJ Bollox the whole thing up

>

> Was it right to have an Independence Day yet a

> month later warn that we would go back to more

> severe lockdown

>

> Is it all a conspiracy >>>>

It is not a conspiracy....it is real and it came from China and was spread around because of the failure of the WHO to allow the banning of passenger flights...especially this bit

'However, the necessity and benefits of this public health response are outweighed by its violation of international law. Under the International Health Regulations (2005) (IHR), binding on all World Health Organization (WHO) member states, health measures ?shall not be more restrictive of international traffic and not more invasive or intrusive to persons than reasonably available alternatives? [(4), art. 43]. Given the effectiveness of community-based public health measures such as social distancing (5) and contact tracing (6), the necessity of travel bans must be weighed against less restrictive alternatives, increased global divisions, and violated IHR obligations (7).'

from

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/367/6485/1436.2

[j.a.]

uncleglen Wrote:

>

> It is not a conspiracy....it is real and it came

> from China and was spread around because of the

> failure of the WHO to allow the banning of

> passenger flights...especially this bit

> 'However, the necessity and benefits of this

> public health response are outweighed by its

> violation of international law. Under the

> International Health Regulations (2005) (IHR),

> binding on all World Health Organization (WHO)

> member states, health measures ?shall not be more

> restrictive of international traffic and not more

> invasive or intrusive to persons than reasonably

> available alternatives? [(4), art. 43]. Given the

> effectiveness of community-based public health

> measures such as social distancing (5) and contact

> tracing (6), the necessity of travel bans must be

> weighed against less restrictive alternatives,

> increased global divisions, and violated IHR

> obligations (7).'

>

> from

> https://science.sciencemag.org/content/367/6485/14

> 36.2

If you genuinely believe that sovereign governments were about to let the WHO dictate what they could do with their borders then you're even more stupid than I thought.

They pay lip service to the WHO - which was what resulted in China being able to dominate it in the first place, be careful what you wish for mate - and the realpolitik is that no one is going to listen to them regarding border controls if they don't want to.

The British govt has admitted that they locked down too late, and we know they closed the borders too late. But sure, blame the WHO if it makes you feel better.

Run off back to your mum's basement to conjure up more selective quotes that back up your racism. I'll wait...

[KidKruger]

With waffle like that quote from the WHO, how could anything - any even slightly meaningful controls - ever be implemented ?!

It basically says "well, sort of do something, as long as it doesn't put anyone out, sort of".

How could any view be taken from this, or referencing it lead to anything useful ?

I thought the point of referencing a quote was to show something authoritative or definitive.

[diable rouge]

Spartacus Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> So rather than us all

> pointing the finger at our government maybe we

> should all be asking for information on how the

> pandemic started and what needs to happen to stop

> the next one...

I'm sorry, but you can't detach one from the other, they are entwined. You need to point out the mistakes the Gov has made in order to learn lessons from them and hopefully not repeat them.

The question you should be asking is why this government and it's apologists on here won't admit to these mistakes.

I note from j.a's reposte to our resident racist...'' The British govt has admitted that they locked down too late''...but they haven't been that specific, as the FT reported a couple of weeks ago...

Boris Johnson has admitted the UK government could have responded to coronavirus pandemic ''differently'' and that there remain ''very open questions'' as to whether Britian's lockdown was introduced too late.

Until this Government acknowledges the mistakes it's made, and with some of those mistakes e.g care homes, apologises, then we are never going to come together as a nation...

[Spartacus]

It's bigger than just our government, it's a global lessons to learn, which the UK will of course need to be included in but let's also look at the cause of this global pandemic, why governments didn't get coherent advice from those who should have (WHO ?) and yes this government like all governments around the world made mistakes and hindsight is a wonderful tool for bashing people who made decisions based on the best advice available at the time it was taken.

We are all armchair critics of our government but if you were on the firing line at the time you may well have made similar good and bad life impacting decisions.

For example we could all with hindsight pass judgment on the mayor for reducing the number of tubes and buses to save costs when passenger numbers started falling in the early months of the pandemic which potentially increased transmission rates as tubes once again were packed. However hindsight tells us that it is a virus transmitted by proximity and highly contagious so again the mayor acted (with hindsight) incorrectly but at the time there wasn't enough information from the advising bodies (WHO) so he could be conceived as doing the right thing at the time he made that decision to save money.

It's tricky to look back and apply today's knowledge when judging decisions made with less information or advice on hand at the time.

Short answer is that yes, the UK government needs to be included in a global pandemic review but ultimately it has to be done in context and in light of the fact they were reacting to a new unknown and highly contagious virus that they had very little information or knowledge about with very poor advice given by influential organisations.

[Blah Blah]

Uncle, as others have pointed out, the WHO has NO power to tell any government what to do. None whatsoever. Also, by the time they were told about this virus, it had already traveled beyond China's borders. You should understand by now that one of the very tricky things about this virus is that it takes WEEKS to show symptoms, and not all carriers of the virus show the same type or degree of symptoms either. You can't see a virus you know nothing about the existence of until someone presents at a hospital with a severe illness.

In reality, the WHO is a body that is reactive, collating data and information and then advising governments on what to to. It has a track record of being slow to declare pandemics, but that is partly because not every new virus that emerges leads to a pandemic, so there is a kind of initial 'wait and see' approach. There is some sense to that or we would be locking down economies every few years. Even though there has long been a 'not if but when' understanding of pandemic threat, it still catches us out when that global pandemic finally arrives. Also, to be fair, the expected pandemic has tended to be a novel avian flu mutation (something we have a much deeper understanding and experience of) over a challenging SARS virus that we are still struggling to fully understand.

So for all those reasons, Spartacus is right. The whole world lacked the best outcome response (in spite of everything it knows) when that pandemic finally came. The countries that were best prepared were those with recent experience of dealing with SARS, MERS, EBOLA, who already have their community led track and trace networks in place, tried and tested. But even there, the economic impacts (and knock on public health impacts) can not be avoided. And some of those places are least able to absorb and recover from those.

We are where we are. Things are going to be tough for a while. Displays of outrage aren't going to change that. The key is to have a working plan, that we all do out part to enact, and hope that we get to a vaccine or other effective treatment as soon as possible.