lack of masks in Sainsbury's

[gabys1st]

I said "OK in long run theselves" but it IS not just elderly that can catch it and do long term damage to Health. More younger people are getting it now, and not always mildly.

-------------------------------------------------------

> the elderley are wearing them because they are

> frightened

[tomskip]

You just need to look at the excess death rates in countries where mask wearing is customary to understand the argument for complying. The real disgrace is that our Government had to spout the "mask wearing isn't proven to control the spread of this infection" message for months on end because they were scared stiff general retailers would buy up all the available stock when front line health care workers in the NHS, care homes and care in the community were being asked to work without it.

I'm glad that we've all finally come to our senses and accepted that mask wearing, whilst not infallible, has a significant impact on infection rates.

[seenbeen]

tomskip Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> You just need to look at the excess death rates in

> countries where mask wearing is customary to

> understand the argument for complying. The real

> disgrace is that our Government had to spout the

> "mask wearing isn't proven to control the spread

> of this infection" message for months on end

> because they were scared stiff general retailers

> would buy up all the available stock when front

> line health care workers in the NHS, care homes

> and care in the community were being asked to work

> without it.

>

> I'm glad that we've all finally come to our senses

> and accepted that mask wearing, whilst not

> infallible, has a significant impact on infection

> rates.

Well, given the panic behaviour of the general public and the price gouging that went on I think the Government were right to err on the side of caution and not insist on masks at the time. Even though there were instructions everywhere for how to make masks people would still have bought them in bulk like they did everything else

[sand12]

Was there recently. Apparently COVID is on summer holiday guessing by the lack of mask on nearly half the adults I saw or any semblance of SDing. Staff aren?t wearing masks. Saw 1 with a mask the whole time I was there. People of all ages are either not wearing them or using them improperly to talk to others or on their phones. The best is the half mask. I never realised noses are such hideous parts.

[AylwardS]

Just to add to what Growlybear said I wouldn?t choose to wear a mask and had to try a few before finding ones that work.

We bought masks locally - at Really Maria. Shaped and elastic goes round the back of the head. We bought masks off the internet - recommended in a newspaper article. Ear loops. I?ve used two types of disposable masks. We?ve bought stick on metal nose shapers.

Conclusion:

* Masks with ear loops don?t work for us - we both wear spectacles

* Shaped masks work best for us - the masks we bought off the internet were donated to the Albrighton centre

* Elastic behind the head offers easier adjustment

* Generally we?re not going out and only come into contact with other people and use masks when shopping

* I need to wear a mask for 4-5 hours when I?m with people and it might not be possible to social distance all the time. I tried out my cloth mask and disposable ones and have decided disposable ones are more comfortable for the longer period. When I?ll just need the mask for short periods my mask of choice is a cloth one

* Stick on metal nose shapers help stop our glasses steaming up. Not 100% but I doubt there is anyone who wears glasses who hasn?t gone inside on a winter?s evening and their glasses steamed up. You just get on with it.

It?s not comfortable wearing a mask but you adjust. I?ve had nowhere near as much pain from wearing a mask as I have from new shoes over the years. If the fact its law isn?t enough for you to wear one how about to protect others, if you are infected and don?t know it and therefore avoid a local Lockdown or imposition of tighter restrictions on ALL in the area? We all know that could happen at very short notice - restrictions in the North West, Spain on then off the quarantine list.

An MP, before the law came in said wearing a mask should be left to people?s common sense. That would have worked Not.

Think on - don?t wear a mask a future law could be wear them whenever you leave the house and the police will enforce. It was mandatory for a time in Italy but isn?t now. The Italians don?t get queuing and la bella figura (how you look) is a bigger thing for them than in our culture. They managed. Various places are making masks mandatory outside. Who says a future announcement won?t make that the case here?

Re Sainsburys most people are wearing them. Yes not all staff do but just because someone else does / doesn?t do something should you?

[dontbesilly]

I only wore a mask once or twice (i no longer do because i value being able to do what i like) but found that when i went to cough, i'd always cough outside of the mask, to get rid of any germs. So even if i did wear a mask, it would be pointless as i wouldnt want to cough or sneeze inside of it.

[lameduck]

dontbesilly Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I only wore a mask once or twice (i no longer do

> because i value being able to do what i like) but

> found that when i went to cough, i'd always cough

> outside of the mask, to get rid of any germs. So

> even if i did wear a mask, it would be pointless

> as i wouldnt want to cough or sneeze inside of it.

who would want to cough into a mask

Dont you use a hankerchief

[Blah Blah]

Do not feed the troll.

[lameduck]

Blah Blah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Do not feed the troll.

Sorry

[Ole]

The wording of the official reported Covid deaths are of people who have died having tested positive for Covid.

The official wording is very interesting and has been chosen very deliberately.

Note that it is not people who have died OF covid, nor people who have died WITH Covid.

This wording implies that if you tested positive for Covid 3 months ago, and then got run over by a bus, you'd be included in the Covid deaths. It also implies that if years later you die of a stroke, you could be included in the official covid deaths number. This wording leaves the door open for all kinds of message for years to come.

There is no doubt that there has been excess deaths in these past few months, but there is also no doubt that in the last 2 years there has been very mid flu and respiratory disease seasons with fewer excess deaths. Will this balance itself out by the end of the year? Perhaps, but there is no doubt that there is also going to be a lot more excess cancer, cardiovascular and mental health deaths. There is also going to be increased poverty, and poverty increases morbidity. Will these deaths be counted as Covid deaths?

Which is the most credible side? A good statistician can argue for either.

[jimlad48]

TGhis - absolutely this.

In 2014/15 almost 30,000 people died of flu in the UK - we didn't look at even the most basic of lockdown procedures and no one really noticed outside of those who had known people.

Today we have destroyed our national economy and created a state of near panic in some quarters over a bug that is killing roughly the same number of people, and if you read the stats each day it makes clear that hospital deaths are linked to people, all of whom have pre-existing serious health conditions.

COVID is not the mass killer we think it is - its just a flu bug and its doing what those bugs always do.

Can we please just get back to normal and stop acting like armageddon has arrived?

Ole Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The wording of the official reported Covid deaths

> are of people who have died having tested positive

> for Covid.

>

> The official wording is very interesting and has

> been chosen very deliberately.

>

> Note that it is not people who have died OF covid,

> nor people who have died WITH Covid.

>

> This wording implies that if you tested positive

> for Covid 3 months ago, and then got run over by a

> bus, you'd be included in the Covid deaths. It

> also implies that if years later you die of a

> stroke, you could be included in the official

> covid deaths number. This wording leaves the door

> open for all kinds of message for years to come.

>

> There is no doubt that there has been excess

> deaths in these past few months, but there is also

> no doubt that in the last 2 years there has been

> very mid flu and respiratory disease seasons with

> fewer excess deaths. Will this balance itself out

> by the end of the year? Perhaps, but there is no

> doubt that there is also going to be a lot more

> excess cancer, cardiovascular and mental health

> deaths. There is also going to be increased

> poverty, and poverty increases morbidity. Will

> these deaths be counted as Covid deaths?

>

> Which is the most credible side? A good

> statistician can argue for either.

[Penguin68]

The wording of the official reported Covid deaths are of people who have died having tested positive for Covid.

Only in England; Scotland and Wales put a time limit on when the positive test was done, I think the Scot's one is 28 days.

It almost as if PHE wanted to place as many deaths as possible at Covid 19's door rather than imply that maybe people could have died of other things not being properly treated because all the medical attention was on Covid-19.

Unlike (I'm guessing) almost every other country, except possibly Belgium, our English system is, if anything, exaggerating the Covid-19 death toll.

[Penguin68]

COVID is not the mass killer we think it is - its just a flu bug and its doing what those bugs always do.

NO, it is absolutely NOT a flu bug. It's symptoms, for many people, are similar to flu, and resulting pneumonia is also a consequence of flu, but some symptoms (anosmia - loss of taste and smell) are different - and it's long term impacts for a few (possibly more than a few) are far worse than for flu, from which most people will fully recover.

Unlike flu it has multiple asymptomatic carriers, and people become infectious up to 3 or 4 days before they display any symptoms, if they do at all.

It's anyway an entirely different family of virus from flu. Flu treatments (other than analgesics) don't work on it either to relieve symptoms or shorten duration. So far the first wave, as it's peaked and plateaued has killed .01% of the population - in most countries which are now past the first tranche, unless they locked down very early and very firmly. A second wave is now hitting those countries.

Oh, and there's a vaccination which reduces flu's population impact - there isn't one for Covid-19.

[Earl Aelfheah]

People are getting unbelievably complacent.

[Ole]

For some it may be complacency, for others it is weighing up the risk and cost-benefit calculations.

NICE do very complicated calculations to decide if a drug becomes available on the NHS, and that is generally accepted.

Every day somebody is making decisions, which impact the public, based on cost-benefit-risk calculations.

Healthcare systems have developed based on cost-benefit-risk calculations. Vaccine and drug development decisions are based on these calculations.

[Blah Blah]

Ole and Jimlad, waves of people suddenly presenting at hospitals with severe respiratory illnesses happened. At one point, 900 people were dying EVERY day. No other virus does that. Had we let the virus spread freely, as we do with colds and seasonal flu, how many people do you think would have been flooding hospitals? For every death, there were 4 others needing ICU care to recover! And btw, most of those who die from seasonal flu, do not have the annual vaccine. The use of a vaccine is a fundamental tool of containment. We have no vaccine for covid yet.

Understand the difference please. Very good programme on BBC last night, called 'Covid, my Brother and I'. In that you got some essence of the range of complexities around this virus. Data showing for example that the rate of strokes is above average in patients carrying the covid virus. These are patients that had no prior underlying illness. We focus on the respiratory illnesses because that is the primary function of covid, to attack the ACE2 receptors in the respiratory organs, causing severe inflammation. But there is emerging evidence of impacts in other areas of the body that induces conditions in some that they would not be suffering from otherwise. Scale all of that up to half of the nation getting this virus and you get a picture of many hospital departments and resources being challenged potentially. This is NOT flu, and the comparisons to that have to stop.

[seenbeen]

From Wiki

'Location within the body

ACE2 is present in most organs: ACE2 is attached to the cell membrane of mainly lung type II alveolar cells, enterocytes of the small intestine, arterial and venous endothelial cells and arterial smooth muscle cells in most organs. ACE2 mRNA expression is also found in the cerebral cortex, striatum, hypothalamus, and brainstem.[18] The expression of ACE2 in cortical neurons and glia make them susceptible to a SARS-CoV-2 attack, which was the possible basis of anosmia and incidences of neurological deficits seen in COVID-19.[19] As anosmia and dysgeusia are seen early in many COVID-19 patients, it was suggested to be considered to be a heralding clue in COVID-19,[20] which subsequently was declared as "significant symptoms" in COVID-19 by the American Academy of Otolaryngology?Head and Neck Surgery.[21]'

The presence of ACE2 elsewhere explains the various symptoms.

Always check your sense of smell and taste is ok for instance.

[Ole]

I?m simply stating the facts around official wording, excess deaths, and how organisations make decisions.

[Growlybear]

I've just got back from Sainsbury's in Sydenham and I was shocked by how many selfish, ignorant idiots were not wearing face coverings, or were wearing them just over their mouths, or chins. At least 25% of the customers I saw were not complying with the law, and most people were completely ignoring social distancing of any kind. It will be a long time before I venture back there.

[Blah Blah]

I appreciate that Ole, but it is a splitting hairs kind of argument to be fair. Everyone seems to have forgotten why the lock down was necessary, and the death and ICU figures at the peak (which did not include care home deaths at the time), a peak that would have been much higher and prolonged without a lockdown. The virus has not gone away. All it would take to see the exponential growth of infection and death back to those levels (and worse) is for life to go back to the way it was before. People have to understand that there are going to be ongoing compromises in order to keep that infection rate low. As seenbeen's post above illustrates, covid is not just impacting lungs, it is impacting other parts of the body, and there are a range of conditions it can induce. Science and government try to simplify this stuff, but in reality it is always far more complex for those actually treating the various conditions. I also would argue that over time, we will shift from conversations about deaths caused, to ones around recovery from the various induced conditions and lasting impacts and complications that result. This may define public health spending in turn.

[keano77]

Growlybear Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I've just got back from Sainsbury's in Sydenham

> and I was shocked by how many selfish, ignorant

> idiots were not wearing face coverings, or were

> wearing them just over their mouths, or chins. At

> least 25% of the customers I saw were not

> complying with the law, and most people were

> completely ignoring social distancing of any kind.

> It will be a long time before I venture back

> there.

Appears many face masks are next to useless. Australia has just withdrawn 286 different types from sale (for mainly medical Reasons)

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/aug/06/hundreds-of-types-of-face-masks-withdrawn-from-sale-in-australia-amid-safety-fears

[TE44]

Brtween March and June there were almost 30,000 more deaths in care homes than there was in 2019. Its disgusting how old people are being treated. The test Randox ( sorry that may be wrong . On phone and can't check) was pulled for some very vague reason which we are not privvy to. This has affected people being able to visit elderly family and friends, although there is outside visits. Not everyone is able for this. I cannot believe how cruel this is. After how they've already been treated. Its disgusting, why havent the government made a statement by now about why this test was pulled and why if they are doing as many tests as they say, care homes are not top priority.

Taking the 30,000 care home deaths along with the people who were counted as covid deaths who died from something else, then the ones who weren't tested but symptomatically diagnosed, it is hardly a pandemic. Fear is used as a cover up from truth.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/health/relatives-care-home-delays-coronavirus-lockdown-a4513566.html

[TE44]

There is also a link to many physical complex conditions affecting different parts of the body brought about through isolation and loneliness. Protection. Mental torture and murder. And not even allowing loved ones to be with them when they died. This will never be forgotten.

https://www.nia.nih.gov/news/social-isolation-loneliness-older-people-pose-health-risks

[lilaccruiser]

Ending the thread drift, hopefully, can I publish my thanks to the very nice man in a Mazda RX8 who gave me a mask at the entrance to Sainsbury?s when I turned up without one mid last week. A complete gentleman.

[macutd]

so i was in Sainsbury's yesterday at the Argos counter.and a couple with a child were all not wearing a mast WHY?

I can understand the child but surely the man and partner don't share the same problem that prevents them both from wearing a mask.

It's just rude to others.