lack of masks in Sainsbury's

[Blah Blah]

While you are right jimlad, on the incoherent messaging and half-hearted approach to guidelines, you are completely wrong to think covid is only killing people with a few months or years left to live. That too is a failure of government messaging. What overwhelms hospitals more than those who die, are those who don't. Those who eventually recover but need intensive care to do so. Those people are of all adult ages and no-one knows yet, the level of immunity those people have, how long that lasts and if any longer term damage is caused by the illness. Now scale that up to what we would see if we allow the virus to spread freely.

All the points you make about the economy are valid. That is why avoiding another spike when cough and colds hit in the winter is really important. Wearing a mask is one small measure that might help to avoid that. Throwing a hissy fit over having to wear one for the few minutes you spend in a shop is the over reaction I think ;)

[Rockets]

I think we can surmise that Jimlad48 doesn?t know anyone that has been badly impacted by this. If he had one suspects that he would take a different view.

This isn?t a matter of days or weeks, this is robbing many families of years with loved ones. Yes many, if not most, have cormobidities but it is wrong, and utterly insensitive, to say that they would have died soon anyway.

Wearing masks is about protecting others from you - but for many, caring about others isn?t high on their agenda...

jimlad48 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Personally I'll choose to go to the one that

> doesnt enforce mask wearing.

>

> Wear one if you want to, but I'm tired of the

> hysterical overreaction, attack on our civil

> liberties all because of a bug that is doing what

> bugs do and having a clear out of the vulnerable

> who always die of these things. Sorry, bluntly

> put, we're screwing our economy to buy a week or

> two extra for people with severe life limiting

> illnesses anyway.

>

> Meanwhile the NHS is being forced to delay all

> manner of treatments for plenty of other

> conditions, which could be saved because of COVID.

> How many people are going to die who could have

> been saved because we're trying to protect those

> who are likely on their way out anyway?

>

> I am utterly fed up of watching friends businesses

> collapse, people end up unemployed, education

> suffer all to protect a tiny minority of people.

> The cases nationally are miniscule, but we've

> essentially chosen to bankrupt the country and put

> future generations in debt to protect people on

> the basis of some very dodgy science and statistic

> use and a set of guidelines thare nonsensical.

>

> I'd take it more seriously if it was blanket masks

> everywhere, but its not - the guidance makes no

> sense, its being invented on the hoof and relies

> on stupidity like refusing permission to go to a

> friends house, but allowing you to meet them in

> Nandos for dinner - this is neither coherent nor

> sensible. Meanwhile Cummings and his ilk get away

> with anything they want...

>

> Give us back normal life and let those who want to

> take precautions and others do as they wish.

[keano77]

?... Wearing masks is about protecting others from you ...?

I was in a big well-known supermarket recently and as I entered an aisle a woman pulled her mask down and sneezed over me and a few others before pulling her mask up again. No apology. I suppose she just didn?t want to carry on shopping in a snotty mask.

Just saying.

[gabys1st]

because of a bug that is doing what bugs do and having a clear out of the vulnerable who always die of these things. ... Huh am not afraid of dying in fact have DNR in place but going with help of covod is a gahstly way to go, also cdrecover and have brain damage and be in far worse previous state than before.

-------------------------------------------------------

> Personally I'll choose to go to the one that

> doesnt enforce mask wearing.

>

> Wear one if you want to, but I'm tired of the

> hysterical overreaction, attack on our civil

> liberties all because of a bug that is doing what

> bugs do and having a clear out of the vulnerable

> who always die of these things. Sorry, bluntly

> put, we're screwing our economy to buy a week or

> two extra for people with severe life limiting

> illnesses anyway.

>

> Meanwhile the NHS is being forced to delay all

> manner of treatments for plenty of other

> conditions, which could be saved because of COVID.

> How many people are going to die who could have

> been saved because we're trying to protect those

> who are likely on their way out anyway?

>

> I am utterly fed up of watching friends businesses

> collapse, people end up unemployed, education

> suffer all to protect a tiny minority of people.

> The cases nationally are miniscule, but we've

> essentially chosen to bankrupt the country and put

> future generations in debt to protect people on

> the basis of some very dodgy science and statistic

> use and a set of guidelines thare nonsensical.

>

> I'd take it more seriously if it was blanket masks

> everywhere, but its not - the guidance makes no

> sense, its being invented on the hoof and relies

> on stupidity like refusing permission to go to a

> friends house, but allowing you to meet them in

> Nandos for dinner - this is neither coherent nor

> sensible. Meanwhile Cummings and his ilk get away

> with anything they want...

>

> Give us back normal life and let those who want to

> take precautions and others do as they wish.

[n dulwich northerner]

keano77 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I was in a big well-known supermarket recently and

> as I entered an aisle a woman pulled her mask down

> and sneezed over me and a few others before

> pulling her mask up again.

Douse her in bleach? Aisle 13.

[Ace77]

Some staff in Sainsburys aren't wearing masks or have masks just vaguely near the mouth, this must make it difficult for security to enforce mask wearing for customers.

[gabys1st]

Still shocked by Jimlad's comments.

Why not do as Hitler ended up doing openly that is killing off those who were not productive members of society ..Yes German kids with special needs, frail elderly and so on as they were a drain on government resources.

Also point out that many peeps more vulnerable to Covid normally manage thier conditions, are productive, support families and are not a finacial drain on society and can have reasonable life expectancy.

Wearing masks is not just about giving the vulnerable a couple weeks more lives.

Yes we need to get the economy working n Gov. is doing a fine balancing act between that andmaking sure NHS can cope which it won't do if beds filled by those under discussion.

If people can't/don't want to put up with mild discomfort (exceptions being those with conditions including hearing impaired who lip) then I fear for us as a society.

[gabys1st]

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/11/coronavirus-ill-disabled-people

Try broading your reading material Jimlad48

[jimlad48]

Everyone is acting in a way that suggests that somehow I want to line up and kill people off - don't be so utterly hyperbolic. I am merely stating the cold hard and uncomfortable truth that bugs like COVID can and do kill people every year, particularly those with terminal conditions.

We may not want to hear this, and we may be uncomfortable accepting this, but if you look each year, if there is a bad flu season, excess deaths soar - and its the same population. We regularly accept and take for granted that a heavy flu season will kill 20-30,000 excess people and as a society we are completely accepting of this.

Yet COVID has caused some people to act in a way which suggests they think that no bug of this type has ever killed people before. I genuinely think if we'd done nothing then we would probably have not noticed much difference to society.

But we've instead chosen to take the most radical and extreme response, shutting our economy down, doing massive long term harm to it, and harming our ability to fund the NHS on the medium to long term. We've deliberately chosen to pause access to healthcare for many people who need it to get them treatement that could make difference between a positive or very bad prognosis, and we're doing so in order fundamentally to shield those who are always at risk regardless.

This isn't eugenics, this is a simple truth - flu bugs kill certain swathes of people each year, we've accepted this for centuries, and now we're acting as if this is the first time we've found this out. We've also massively overblown in the public mind the risk - research shows that in surveys members of the public think that 7% of the UK population has died from COVID, not something like 0.001% (many of whom would have died anyway of something else this year) - we've lost the ability to think rationally and objectively.

I don't doubt guidance made sense for those at risk, and in very targeted areas - but the blanket approach was too much, for too long and it has done far more damage to us as a country than a relatively small number of deaths.

In years to come I genuinely think the history books will say that we overreacted and that the damage done in the medium to long term vastly outweighed the good done in the short term.

[KidKruger]

jimlad - the 10s of thousands of dead people we?ve had in UK, is WITH restrictions in place.

If we?d just ignored it and ?carried on? there would have be 100s of thousands of deaths through knock-on infections. It?d be too late to control as it went exponential.

[JohnL]

jimlad48 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> In years to come I genuinely think the history

> books will say that we overreacted and that the

> damage done in the medium to long term vastly

> outweighed the good done in the short term.

There's evidence beginning to come out that Covid-19 is cumulative - it leaves tissue damage in those who didn't even show many symptoms.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/07/brain-fog-heart-damage-covid-19-s-lingering-problems-alarm-scientists

If that's true and you combine it with non-life immunity (you could catch it again next year) and you have a very dangerous bug.

[lameduck]

Jimlad

The old disabled and vunerable who have died and will die

Some Fought a war so you have a good free life, with your own thoughts and views

and paid for your education in their taxes

maybe a little sacrifice from you, a bit of respect a mask, is that much?

[dontbesilly]

Got to agree with Jim- i never wear a mask and have had rows with people on Lordship Lane who have had the chutzpah to dare challenge me why (they soon learn not to again). There is literally no point in making everyone wear a mask, we might as well go back in lockdown and be done with it if half arsed measures such as this are introduced way after the damage is done.

Do you really expect people to wear masks for the next 2 years? As that is how long it will be until a vaccine is widely available. At least with a second wave everyone is going to be better prepared for it as we have already gone through the motions earlier this year, and the more people who have herd immunity the better. Yes, we will loose some elderly, but as Jim rightly points out they are on the way out anyway and there is no point denying young people their lives and jobs just to protect his group from the inevitable .

[Blah Blah]

So you are a bully as well as a troll then dontbesilly?

And btw, herd immunity is never achieved without help of a vaccine.

[Blah Blah]

John L is right. It takes at least two years to assess if a new virus leaves immunity and longer to understand any longer term damage. If we employed no measures to contain the spread, we would literally be playing Russian Roulette. Yes there is a sensible and proportionate balance to be met, and government is still trying to find out where that is. Everything will change when winter comes (sounding like Game of Thrones now!) - when people are coughing and sneezing from seasonal infections. This is where the danger of a second wave lies, and it is a real danger. Covid is not just another bug. Hospitals don't have to expand ICU wards for any other bug. What part of that is so hard to grasp?

People have a choice. Be part of trying to hold back a second wave, or go on as before. And when we are still talking about this in December, and if the country is locked down again, because our hospitals are filling with sick covid patients, we'll see what the mask naysayers have to say then.

[Soylent Green]

Compliance is much higher in France because they carry identity cards and have a larger police force who regularly ask for 'les papiers'. ID cards have been suggested in this country on a number of occasions, but have been rejected on the grounds of personal liberty. Whilst most would see this liberty as a good thing, it does have a downside in that belligerent ignorami declare that non-enforced measures, like the wearing of face masks, are an infringement on their personal liberty. Personally, I find the 'I'm not wearing one' attitude in this country painfully embarrassing.

[gabys1st]

Yep flue killss thousands and that is inspite of vaccines which are racing to keep up, it is not accepted which is why new ones or variation on a theme are worked on all the time.

Most vulnerabable people excluding those whith cognitive difficulties, know and do keep away from anyone who has flue symptoms and colds, sneeze into tissues etc.

Also mask wearking in shops protects the shop workers, you don't want to wear them for a short while, how do you think it must be like to wear them for 8 hrs? Ah, maybe shopwokers are also expendable - lots more unemplyed looking to take thier places.

Pople can choose if want to go to pubs to places of liesure demanding mask wearing, but choosing not to go food shopping is a choice btween a healthy balanced diet and possibly going going hungry.

-------------------------------------------------------

> Everyone is acting in a way that suggests that

> somehow I want to line up and kill people off -

> don't be so utterly hyperbolic. I am merely

> stating the cold hard and uncomfortable truth that

> bugs like COVID can and do kill people every year,

> particularly those with terminal conditions.

>

> We may not want to hear this, and we may be

> uncomfortable accepting this, but if you look each

> year, if there is a bad flu season, excess deaths

> soar - and its the same population. We regularly

> accept and take for granted that a heavy flu

> season will kill 20-30,000 excess people and as a

> society we are completely accepting of this.

>

> Yet COVID has caused some people to act in a way

> which suggests they think that no bug of this type

> has ever killed people before. I genuinely think

> if we'd done nothing then we would probably have

> not noticed much difference to society.

>

> But we've instead chosen to take the most radical

> and extreme response, shutting our economy down,

> doing massive long term harm to it, and harming

> our ability to fund the NHS on the medium to long

> term. We've deliberately chosen to pause access to

> healthcare for many people who need it to get them

> treatement that could make difference between a

> positive or very bad prognosis, and we're doing so

> in order fundamentally to shield those who are

> always at risk regardless.

>

> This isn't eugenics, this is a simple truth - flu

> bugs kill certain swathes of people each year,

> we've accepted this for centuries, and now we're

> acting as if this is the first time we've found

> this out. We've also massively overblown in the

> public mind the risk - research shows that in

> surveys members of the public think that 7% of the

> UK population has died from COVID, not something

> like 0.001% (many of whom would have died anyway

> of something else this year) - we've lost the

> ability to think rationally and objectively.

>

> I don't doubt guidance made sense for those at

> risk, and in very targeted areas - but the blanket

> approach was too much, for too long and it has

> done far more damage to us as a country than a

> relatively small number of deaths.

>

> In years to come I genuinely think the history

> books will say that we overreacted and that the

> damage done in the medium to long term vastly

> outweighed the good done in the short term.

[lindylou]

Dear God. I can't believe some of these posts on here. We all should be protecting ourselves and others. What's the alternative to not wearing a mask, another lockdown which none of us wants.

[Growlybear]

I haven't been out without wearing a mask since early March, and I really don't understand the problem with wearing one. Of course I would rather not have to wear a mask, but you get used to wearing one quickly - even if you don't accept the need for wearing a mask, or don't care if you may infect other people, it's not really much to ask for people to wear one in enclosed spaces, and for them to comply with the law.

Back in February when I was stocking up on masks, they were selling for silly prices, but they are now very readily available, and are very cheap; I've also seen instructions in many places for how to make your own. So cost can't be an issue now.

I've heard many people complain that masks make your glasses steam up; I wear glasses, and if I don't fit the mask properly round my nose and under my spectacles, they steam up a bit, but that depends to an extent on the type of mask I wear, and it isn't exactly the end of the world if your glasses are a bit misty when you're walking round the supermarket.

The vast majority of people don't have medical conditions that prevent them from wearing a mask, (and of course it's an issue with lip reading) but my husband has COPD and hasn't found that his breathing is impaired in the slightest by wearing a disposable paper mask.

Even if people don't really believe that wearing a mask will help to protect other people if they're unwittingly carrying the virus, or believe that they are immune, why can't they just humour the 95% of population who DO accept that it helps to reduce the risk of infection?

[Earl Aelfheah]

Just wear a mask - It's not much to ask is it? If it helps protect other people?

[oimissus]

Sometimes I think I must live in a parallel universe to the EDF. I?ve been to the DKH Sainsbo?s several times since the rules came in and haven?t seen any customers not wearing a mask, and quite a lot of the staff wearing them. Same for the small one on Peckham Road.

[seenbeen]

Just been there- many people, (including some staff with them half on or not at all) NOT wearing masks but on the whole the elderly are wearing masks....

[gabys1st]

So the elderly on the whole unless wearing super expensive masks are trying to protect others, Ok n in long runs themselves.

[lameduck]

the elderley are wearing them because they are frightened

[n dulwich northerner]

Was at JS DKH this morning. Only one customer, a young man, NOT wearing a mask.