Discussion about girls and body image

[Fuschia]

I would be interested to hear people's thoughts about raiding girls, and issues re health, weight, food and image.

My daughter is only 4 and a skinny little thing, it's sad to hear her talking about diets and some foods being fattening

[kmoon249]

that is really sad. Where do you think your daughter is hearing words like "diet" and "fattening" foods?

[Helen GV]

I'll be watching this one! I remember Dawn French saying that her father told her she was wonderful and it didn't matter what size she was (can't remember the context, think it was a school dance when she was a teen) and I think fathers can really help in the area of girls self esteem etc. otherwise the way I'm planning on playing it is by not worrying about my weight out loud! My step mother was obsessed with weight and would say things like 'oh look we have the same jeans Helen, but don't worry, mine are smaller so we can tell them apart', etc etc... Blah blah

Luckily I had a wonderful sister to roll eyes at.

[Fuschia]

I have never been on a diet, but ATM everyone else seems to be, my partner, my sister and her partner.

I have says firmly that it's not the foods which are to blame, just eating too much of them in comparison with other foods/exercise but I suspect it's a sign of things to come with the media as it is.

[Otta]

As a dad of 2 little girls, I do worry about dealing with this in years to come.

Thing is, I know that through my eyes they will always be beautiful. What I hope is that I have the right things to say to them.

I am shocked to hear you tell us about your 4 year old saying those things, you have my sympathy!

[Fuschia]

Anyone with teenage girls got any advice?

[Ondine]

I have girls of 12 and 14. The older one was largely immune to girls talk of weight and body image but it all got a bit wild when she started secondary school and also hit puberty around the same time. She would avoid eating all day, eat sweets and chcolote on the way home, then not want dinner, consequent impact on energy and mood. All very tough. She had friends who claimed to go 3 days on a bag of crisps and a coke. Etc etc etc

Younger one had a classmate through years 4-6 who constantly told the other girls she wanted to be anorexic, commented endlessly on her own and others' weight and generally got them all going.

Main thing is as in most parenting questions, just keep them grounded and talk about everything when the chances come up. I reinstated breakfast when I clocked they were not eating at school breakfast club and we eat round the table at home every evening - no matter how horrible they are being! And teaching them to cook seems to help with keeping a sound attitude towards food.

[minder]

I'm also shocked to hear of a 4 year old talking about diets!

Even if a 4 year old is hearing words like "diet" and "fattening foods" I don't think she would understand the actual meaning of this Fuschia. I think if you restrict certain foods i.e. sugar/salt/fats it could draw attention to them and maybe create problems.

Fast forward 10 years and it could be different.

I have two girls 16 and nearly 14, also a 20 year old son but that's different as he's a gannet and eats me out of house and home!

I've been finding my nearly 14 year old's packed lunch in her bedroom bin for the past few months. Up until now she's eaten everything, breakfast, home cooked dinners, fruit, veg, etc.

I've questioned her and she says it's because sometimes her and friends share their lunch!

She always has a cereal/toast and then a good evening meal but I do worry about what goes on in between.

Now I know about the shared lunch thing, I'm going to find out more about this and keep an eye on things. I've never had to contact her school but just the threat of it will hopefully keep her on track.

She knows I'm onto her so hopefully this is just a fad.

[zeban]

Definitely keep an eye on that minder and absolutely talk to the school and her teachers. I don't want to panic you but my older sister has an eating disorder=started around 14-and we were largely in denial when it started. I think my Mum just didn't want to admit that anything was wrong and also it just wasn't really well known back then, even doctors didn't know much and could be quite unhelpful. Eventually a teacher did call my Mum though about his suspicions but just one teacher out of an entire school took notice of this fact. We also thought she was eating dinner but I'd find little bags of food in the bedroom that we shared. It's a very secretive illness and sadly it had already been going on a while before we really realised what was going on. What I would suggest is observe her when she eats meals with you. What is she like at dinner? Does she leave stuff? does she put butter on her toast at breakfast? I know it sounds crazy but it's better to put your mind at rest.

Also, find out what the school says and if it's worrying maybe talk to her in a safe environment for her. Maybe go out for a coffee and really make sure she feels like she's being listened to.

I'm sure it is just a fad and if I can reassure you, I also started skipping lunch around this age and feeling like I wanted to lose weight. I'd only eat breadsticks and crudites for lunch, with no dip. I can't remember quite what triggered me to do this, perhaps feeling large compared to my diminishing sister, or looking for attention maybe (though not in a self indulgent way). It didn't go any further thank goodness, and I was eating a perfectly normal breakfast and dinner so I don't think I lost even a pound, but don't let it go on any longer without investigating it further.

As for the OP, 4 is just completely devastating to be saying things like this. But from your posts it seems she is picking this up from your sister, your partner etc. I think it's extremely important to keep any conversations about diets away from her and for everyone in the family and household to not be giving any negative messages to her about food. Remind her that you love her, and therefore would never feed her anything that's 'bad' for her.

[Fuschia]

Thanks everyone. I have quite a healthy attitude to food myself and boys are a different kettle of fish mostly e

I think ... I can't help bring a bit nervous at the thought of raising a girl in today's society - it's not nice to have my worries exacerbated by this so early on

[Otta]

I think a big part of the whole body image thing has to do with how figures are collected. We constantly hear about obesity levels in this country and it makes me very cross because it's based on BMI which is simply based on height and weight, and takes nothing else in to account, so girls (and boys) are being told if you're that height, you need to be this weight or you are "over weight, or OBESE.

Based on BMI, every pro rugby player, boxer, and lots of other very fit and healthy people are classed as obese, and are included in the national obesity figures.

My wii fit told me I was obese. Now I admit I could be healthier and possibly shed a bit of weight, but I don't think (at least I hope not) that people look at me and think I look particularly big, let alone obese, and the fact is, with my body shape, I couldn't healthily lose enough weight to be my "ideal weight", my skeleton is too big!

Anyway, my point is that because of these figures and the press getting on to it, I suspect a lot of teachers in schools are being asked to talk to young children about healthy eating, and a lot of them probably do this in a clumsy way because it shouldn't really be their role.

[Saffron]

There's really no way of knowing exactly where she's picking it up, and I don't personally think that blaming other adults is very helpful. Although of course it's good if they're aware and just don't talk about it around her. It could be from anyone or anywhere that she heard it. They listen to stuff that we don't even realise they have overheard.

I'm not at all shocked that a 4 yo would talk about this, b/c 4 yos talk about everything they hear, even if they only hear it once! And I do agree that she probably doesn't understand the depth a what she is saying, which is yet another reason not to draw attention to it or make too much of it (I'm sure you don't do either). Yet at the same time, it's good to be aware of it.

I also agree that getting kids -- girls AND boys -- involved in cooking from early days is helpful b/c it gives them an element of understanding and control over their diets, as well as being a creative outlet and supporting a love of wholesome food.

However, from a psychological pov, if someone does find that his/her child has an eating disorder, s/he shouldn't lay too much blame on him/herself. There is good evidence to support a genetic/biological basis for eating disorders and other disorders within the same spectrum. The main thing is not to lay blame with the parent, child, or others, but simply to understand the problem and provide appropriate treatment and support.

[Saffron]

Also, just to add that the issue is not entirely modern. Anorexia has been documented in the literature for centuries.

[Jessie]

And not just a worry for girls. My 7 Yo boy is convinced he's fat.

[RenF]

Susie Orbach is quite interesting on this topic, I saw her talk a few years ago about body image and specifically young women. I think her book 'Bodies' might be worth a read. For my own two pence I think that mothers in particular have a huge impact on how a girl sees bodies, and then their own body. As a woman whose own

mum had an eating disorder I know this hugely shaped my perception- even though I was not aware of my mum's issue until I was older. I have a daughter now myself and although she's only 9 months old I know that I will have to be careful how I refer to myself in front of her- even off hand comments about jeans not fitting as well, or not "eating that because it's naughty" and so on- they all get stored away for future reference...

I'm not saying that mothers "cause" these issues in their daughters - but I think as mothers we need to be aware and careful.

[pebbles]

Just to confirm what Saffron said about them getting it from anywhere and also for you all to have a giggle on a Sat morning

A few weeks ago my friend was listening to Woman's Hour quite quietly while cooking and kids were playing around her when suddenly her 4 year old son asked "Mummy, what's a designer vagina". She won't be listening to WH again ha ha ha

[susyp]

When I was 14 I started just having a diet coke all day at school and used to keep the money my mum gave me for lunch - one day she found it in my school blazer and went nuts and was v scary - made me eat a plate of ham sandwiches! That put paid to that! Just mentioning as I definetely think that stopped me going down the anorexia route. I would never think that yelling at teenage girl over diet issues would work but sometimes it can just be a fashion as well as desire to be thin

susypx

[midivydale]

Any activities that Focus and encourage self awareness, strength and confidence are useful in ensuring young girls focus on ability rather than "pretty". I have a gymnastic and ballet background where way too much focus was put on being slight, being like a feather and all that nonsense. I am also a qualified ballet and gymnastic teacher and i mase sure that i NEVER referred to light, heavy etc but instead referred to strong legs, power, good muscletone etc. i also made sure that i chatted to all the girls about how important good food is, refuel to keep energy levels up etc. again never ever talked about food and slimming in the same context.

I envied girls who did teamsports like hocky and football as i n ever heard any of them ever talking about weight. I personally would be careful with ballet and gymnastic as that did trigger some food problems for me.

I think its great that you all are so aware with young girls. In short i would encourage activities such as teamsports or self defence classes etc which help build self esteem.

[Saffron]

Agreed, sports are great, but the choice of sport is very individualised. I hated team sports. There weren't any individual sports offered at my school, and so I never got into sport as a teen. Even now, I wouldn't describe myself as sporty, but I like individualised exercise that you can do alone or with another person, eg horse riding, yoga, hiking. These types of lifetime sports and activities are super for any age and great to do together as a family too.

[zeban]

RenF Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Susie Orbach is quite interesting on this topic, I

> saw her talk a few years ago about body image and

> specifically young women. I think her book

> 'Bodies' might be worth a read. For my own two

> pence I think that mothers in particular have a

> huge impact on how a girl sees bodies, and then

> their own body. As a woman whose own

> mum had an eating disorder I know this hugely

> shaped my perception- even though I was not aware

> of my mum's issue until I was older. I have a

> daughter now myself and although she's only 9

> months old I know that I will have to be careful

> how I refer to myself in front of her- even off

> hand comments about jeans not fitting as well, or

> not "eating that because it's naughty" and so on-

> they all get stored away for future reference...

> I'm not saying that mothers "cause" these issues

> in their daughters - but I think as mothers we

> need to be aware and careful.

Completely agree with this RenF. If I have a daughter one day I am going to be so so aware and careful and very sensitive on the subject of food and body image. I don't even want to put make up on in front of her either. I think when you know someone around you whose had an ED you're more aware of the way that what even just one person can say, and especially those most influential in your life, can have an effect on you from a really young age. You can talk about the media all you like but I think the thing that most young people who start to extreme diet (not necessarily develop an ED) will tell you is that it was triggered by someone saying something to them, maybe just something that seems completely ok to that person, but to them made them feel like they were being called fat or greedy etc. For example, I winced when the nurse at my doctors practice told me I'd put on weight recently, when I'd only gone to get the pill. Personally, I think that was insensitive when in my records I clearly have a bit of a past with using and abusing food- as many/most if not all women have. Some people really have no idea how the handle such issues sensitively. Imagine if I'd been a teenager with low self esteem?

I also agree with midivydale that ballet and gymnastics didn't have a particularly good effect on me and my siblings feelings towards our body. I always felt like my thighs were huge compared to the other girls in their leotards, and I was 9 or 10. However, having said that, watching the olympic gymnasts this year really made me feel like there's been a change in the sport since I was little. All of the women actually looked like women, had womanly bodies and looked really strong and healthy. Back when I was young it was the tiny russians that were revered, you really didn't see gymnasts look like they did this year. Can I also say midivydale what a fantastic teacher you sound! Wish there were more like you.

[oimissus]

I was the same, Saffron, only team sports at my school and I hated the one I was told to do (you didn't get a choice!), track and field were just starting as I left, so I came out at 18 with no enthusiasm for sport or exercise at all. I think it's great if parents can display a healthy interest in sports - Mr Oi is the opposite to me as he started running with his dad aged 7 and ended up athletics captain at school and cross country captain at uni - he hated team sports too but loves his running and can't do without it.

Fuschia - I've been thinking how you could address the diet and fattening foods thing. I think you can say that diet is a word we use to describe what we eat, so balanced diet, and then explain that some, but not all, foods can be fattening if we ate them everyday, like chips or chocolate, but having them every so often is fine, and other things like fruit and veg you can eat loads of - and that's what parents do, make sure the balance is right, so she doesn't have to. Go through what you're cooking and putting in her lunchbox with her.

I do think that whilst body image and eating disorders is a concern, denial about excess weight is just as much as an issue, and what with childhood obesity being on the rise we need to keep an eye out - I get the point about Dawn French but there is no getting away from the fact that at one time she was morbidly obese which had to have a detrimental effect on her health and life. I don't agree with the point made about BMIs - only professional sportspeople probably have so much muscle mass as to render BMIs meaningless. I know that the ideal weight range for my height covers about 3 stone which takes into account different builds etc (and I know that I'm at the top end and shouldn't be - my build is tiny so there's no excuse!)

The whole thing is a minefield for parents, but surely as long as we know what a healthy balanced diet is (and provide it!) and try our best to have a healthy, active lifestyle (and, as others have said, keep the talk about naughty foods and jeans not fitting out of earshot) that's the best we can do.

[Fuschia]

Oimissus, that is pretty much my attitude. For instance, I say to my children that it's ok to eat chips once or twice a week, that they don't need to worry too much because they are very active, but some adults do eat too many chips and it's bad for them (plus doesn't leave enough space for fruit And veg etc)

None of the people we know who are dieting seem particularly fat to me, which probably makes it all the more confusing for her.

[Pickle]

I am all for educating my kids about the importance of healthy eating and exercise. In reception they learn a bit about healthy eating which my son, in particular, found really interesting last year.

We are a healthy household, with Mr Pickle playing hockey, squash, and running, and I also run and enjoy exercising as often as I can fit it in. After having my most recent baby I dieted to get back to my pre-pregnancy weight (have lost 30ish lbs) but it meant watching my portion sizes so I continued eating the same meals as the kids.

I like to think that our overall approach means that the children will grow up knowing about healthy balance.

When I worked as a WW leader (pre kids) children under 16 could be "prescribed" the programme by their GP. For a while I had a 12 year old girl in my class who was very overweight. She really struggled to lose weight, was accompanied to the meeting every week by her extremely overweight parents who both refused to make any changes to their way of life to help her (or themselves). I will never forget them one week, when their daughter had managed to lose a couple of pounds, saying "that's brilliant, let's go for a McDonalds to celebrate". Horrific.

[Otta]

"I don't agree with the point made about BMIs - only professional sportspeople probably have so much muscle mass as to render BMIs meaningless."

Sports people were just used as an extreme example. I wasn't talking so much about muscle mass, but build.

[gillandjoe]

'Fat is a Feminist Issue' is worth a read I think. I read it in my early twenties at just the right time and it made a huge impact on me. Having dabbled in anorexic and exercise mad behaviour since I was 12 ish, the book basically snapped me out of some pretty damaging behaviour. I think it would be a good read for parents to become more conscious.

I have a boy but still aim to keep him away from ladies' magazines ('Look how fast Beyonce lost her baby weight!')and he doesnt watch any telly with adverts. I nannied for a woman who would leave all of her magazines, with all their disgusting misogyny, lying around for her children to soak up like sponges!

I'm off now to the garden to burn my bra!!