Applying for primary schools

[Bouncy]

Hi Simonethebeaver - I feel the same as you (both about religious teaching in schools and the issues with the system), and yes, it's true: there is a fundamental inequality in access to local, state-funded schools depending on whether you subscribe to and demonstrate commitment to a particular faith.

Though state religious and non-faith schools are both funded under the same system, they are allowed to set different admissions criteria. (In Lewisham, at least, where I live) non-faith school have to adhere to the LA's policy, which transparently allocates places according to distance, siblings, SEN status, distance to school, etc. Faith schools, however, define their own criteria - which allow them to discriminate based on 'faith.'

As you say, this means that non-religious families have less chance of getting into a local state primary than religious families - though the schools are funded by the same pot of public money.

Compounding this problem is the lack of acknowledgement of it in the centralised admissions system ? all families are allowed to apply for up to 6 places, regardless of whether they are religious: though if a religious and a non-religious family, equivalent in all other ways, living next door to one another, applied to the same 6 most local state schools, the former would have more chance of a place if any of these were faith schools.

What amazes me is the lack of (local or national) political interest / appetite for changing this. I guess that voting behaviours among religious parents / middle class parents pretending a faith in order to play the system and have more choice (and why not, if you can stomach the indoctrination of your children?) serve as a disincentive.

[Saffron]

simonethebeaver Wrote:

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> But Saffron, state funding for faith schools

> reduces the school places available for everyone,

> surely? For us, for example, it means two of our

> six closest schools are not possibles for us. The

> schools select their pupils from faith groups, so

> children outside that faith are excluded from

> education.

Yes, that does appear to be the case. I wouldn't dispute that in some circumstances state funding for faith schools complicates the placement system. I'm still not opposed to faith-based school receiving funding. (And I'm saying that as someone who is highly unlikely to send my child to a faith school.) BUT, I would agree that the system for allocating that funding and for allocating student places is rubbish. Actually, there is plenty about the state funded standard education system that I find less than ideal.

> Religion should fund its own schools.

There was an lively debate on free schools (including religious context) in the Drawing Room a while back, which is more in line with this discussion than the OP's original topic. So, posting link for anyone interested. :) http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?27,745792,page=1

[LondonMix]

I actually disagree, Simonthebeaver. If there are 6 schools offering 180 places, then 180 students will go to school. If one of the schools is a religious school that doesn?t change the number of school places. Religious schools don?t regularly have unfilled places (quite the opposite).

[Bouncy]

Hi LondonMix,

The issue is that, given the current system, if any of those 6 schools is religious, a disproportionate number of religious families (who are equal to the non-religious according to every other factor accounted for in admissions) in the area local to them will get a place. A disproportionate number of non-religious families will be sent outside of that local area. There is a bias in the system towards religious families (/ those in the know prepared publicly to subscribe to a religion for more choice), in that sense...

[LondonMix]

I understand your point: if all schools were non-faith, eveyone would have equal chances of getting into every school. The religious criteria of faith schools means that usually a religious family has a better chance of getting into more of the local schools, which might seem unfair. However, in practice, I don't believe this has a huge impact as faith schools are over-subscribed. Pupils who otherwise would be going to non-faith schools, through the provision of faith schools, get concentrated into a school that better serves their families? needs. I can?t really seem the harm. For me, it would only be a problem if the school had empty places causing shortages in the broader system or if lots of non-religious children were being forced to get a faith based education against their parents? wishes because there wasn?t enough genuine demand to fill the schools. The fact that faith schools are often the most over-subscribed means that there is genuine demand for religious education (even if people are faking faith because they simply prefer the discipline / results faith schools tend to provide).

[Bouncy]

Hi LondonMix - I think where we mainly differ, then, is in our opionion on whether there should be a perogative of the religious to have an increased chance of attending a school which better meets their desires at the expense of the non-religious having an increased chance of being sent to a school that's both further away and less likely to meet THEIR desires (because if it's not filled in the first round, it will usually be undersubscribed because it's unpopular). I think this perogative should not exist, but guess you would argue that the advantage for the religious justifies the consequences? (though don't want to put words in your mouth!)

[LondonMix]

Hmm, I didn?t really think about it that way. I?m not really sure how it harms non-religious families directly (I?m not religious by the way!). If there is a shortage of local places, there would be a shortage of local places regardless of the existence of faith schools as all the religious families would still be part of the application process. Being sent miles away is more an issue of there not being enough places period rather than an issue created by faith schools. The quality (or lack thereof) of certain non-faith state primaries again isn?t directly caused by there being a faith school. Some might even argue that your local faith school is high achieving because of the discipline etc associated with religious education. It wouldn?t be my preference for my child to go to a faith school but clearly there is demand so I can?t see the justification for getting rid of them. I can understand that living close to a state school might put certain parents within a bit of a black-hole regarding school places but if you put down your six closest which should all be a reasonable distance from your home, I think the council will make sure you get a place in one through the creation of a bulge class, no? Kids get shipped miles away from what I understand most often because their parents didn?t list at least 6 places for whatever reason. I recognize that most people don?t find all 6 of their closest primaries acceptable and that?s really the point. The quality of state school provision needs to continue to improve more uniformly so that everyone one doesn?t keep trying to pile into the same 2 or 3.

[Bouncy]

Hi LondonMix - re. the LA ensuring you get a place in one of your nearest 6 if you put them all down: no, this doesn't happen, sadly.

During the first round of allocations, each school sees in isolation ever applicantion made to it through the central system. They then use their own admissions criteria to determine who they'll offer a place to. They feed this back to the council and the council allocates the school which is highest on the applicant's list and which has made an offer to the applicant.

So, at this point in the system, religious families are more likely to have met the selection criteria of a larger number of schools and to be offered a place. If the 6 schools you have applied to are oversubscribed (as many are), and you are not offered a place at one of them during this first sift, you are offered a place at one of the undersubscribed schools in the borough. So non-religious parents who put down their 6 most local state schools are less likely to be offered at place at one of these 6 if any of the schools are faith schools.

(As I understand it, the creation of buldge classes is not related to that particular year's demand - it's a more long term strategy, and doesn't react post-application to numbers of applicants in an area that particular year.)

My issue here is that, given the way the allocation system works, non-religious families are actively penalised. You and I are less likely to get our child into a local state school than an equivalent non-religious family, and more likely to be offered an undersubscribed, 'undesirable' school, which is further away. (Whether faith schools should be state-funded at all is of course a whole additional matter!)

[LondonMix]

Yes, I agree with you there. They do get better odds as I misunderstood how the bulges worked. In past, Renata has said if you've put down your closest six, it was unlikely you wouldn't be offered at least one of them but I suppose that's no guarantee. However, I don't see the point really of getting rid of faith schools just for that reason. I'd rather lobby for more schools to be built to directly address the real issue.

[BellendenBear]

Is there any way of finding out which schools are likely to bulge?

[Grumpy Hamster]

Really interesting discussion about the use of faith in schools. I take the point that in circumstances where the best school in a local area is a faith school, then those families of the relevent faith will apply to that School and have an advantage. However, might it not also be the case that a family might choose as their first choice a school which is not considered the best in the area, but because it is a faith school i.e. that the family chooses a faith School almost regardless of standard, rather than a good/outstanding school and are assisted by their faith.

I accept that this adds nothing to the argument over how faith schools should be funded.

[greenwater]

Hi - does anyone know the latest re Haberdashers Free school? I see on their site, they are awaiting funding approval, but the free school has been approved. Feels like there could be a lot to do in 6 months?

[intexasatthe moment]

Wonder what qualifications it's staff will have ?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2013/mar/10/free-school-head-no-qualification

[monniemae]

I live next to the temple grove site, which is supposed to be being rebuilt so the temple grove kids, temporarily housed on Habdersashers main site, can move back in September, presumably freeing space at habdersashers for the free school. I haven't seen even a hint of work at the temple grove site (which was burnt down a couple of years ago). So yes, they have a LOT of work to do by September!

[njc97]

Greenwater. All going ahead apparently. I think there's some reason why they don't get final sign off from DoE until late on but they have been approved so they are 100% confident it'll go ahead.

As monniemae says, there have been delays at the temple grove site (something to do with insurance companies) so the current temple grove school* will still be on the Haberdashers site come September, and the free school will be in temporary classrooms on the other side of the site (where they're going to build proper new school in due course).

*I think the new free school will be temple grove, with the current temple grove school getting a different name. No idea why, seems very confusing to me.

[greenwater]

Thanks njc97 - we are moving to the area so we're very interested in progress. I will keep an eye on their web site too.

[Carbonara]

I see the Head of Fairlawn is leaving to join the new Dunraven primary as Head.

Best of luck to her, and lucky Streatham!

[Curly]

Have they got someone to replace her at Fairlawn yet?

[monniemae]

Ah. The way it was explained to us is, our local site is Hatcham Temple Grove and teh free school is Hatcham Temple Grove Free School. njc97, where did you get the info on the extra year's delay? The most recent info we got was via a leaflet trhough the door last autumn saying work was finally about to begin on rebuilding the site so the kids would be in by sept 2013, freeing the temp site for the free school while the new free school building is constructed. Would love some up to date info!