A Question of Masks.

[Blah Blah]

It's a good point. I too think a lot of business will not survive a second full lockdown, but if government truly want to avoid that, then there is going to have to be some meeting reality head on.

It is bad enough that around a quarter of people contacted by track and trace workers refuse to comply. And what will happen if government does not get control of this virus and the messaging around it, is that people will decide to lock down for themselves indefinitely.

Tomorrow the PM is expected to call for people working from home to go back to their offices, so that businesses that serve them can benefit again. Not going to work sadly. People who can work from home are more than happy to continue to do so until this virus is negated. That is the new reality and one that government is going to have to deal with.

[TE44]

Yes people have concerns and fears regarding going back to work, considering all we are hearing regarding our only way out is relying on a medical cure, for a virus that will see more people die because of the actions taken.

I actually havent met many people who are so terrified of the virus they dont want to go back to work, in fact I believe many people are longing to go back, and actually believe contrary to media non sensensical scare tactics that our immune system has not stopped working yet. The doctors are under enormous pressure, how easy are people finding it to rely on the medical proffesion. Certainly not the thousands of people who have not recieved treatment or diagnoses whilst lockdown has continued. I think we will find the death stats will overshadow deaths from the virus.

And again we have a situation with masks where we arebeing pitched against each other. No choice is the only outcome.

[JohnL]

Immune systems do work and sometimes too well and that causes issues too - (the cytokine storm). The immune system is doing what immune systems are meant to do.

Anyway many companies are closing down offices forever or until Christmas for business reasons and they've realised they can run on a work from home model and save money on office space. That's capitalism and the government can't do anything about it (other than force them to use office space).

We all moved to Amazon and Microsoft (and others) data-centers now - that means you just need a internet connection to use many work IT systems (and maybe something like Anyconnect as an option). They've pushed the office network out to mainly include our own home internet connections.

and Telecoms - it's now Teams or Skype.

[JohnL]

Looks like Westminster council isn't giving business rate relief for empty offices mind - but as soon as the contract runs out they'll possibly move out if they are changing the way they do business.

https://www.cityam.com/westminster-denies-firms-business-rates-relief-for-empty-offices-during-lockdown/

It's a hard one for the government as this was going to happen over the next 10 years or so and Covid means it's happened now within months. Maybe they can try giving relief/free office space to get people back as otherwise central London will become a ghost town.

[TE44]

Agree Johnl This is more about the work not being there rather than people to frightened to leave there houses.

Matt Hancock calls for review on Covid19 deaths after PHE confirms natural deaths have been counted as covid19 deaths.

[JohnL]

TE44 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Agree Johnl This is more about the work not being

> there rather than people to frightened to leave

> there houses.

> Matt Hancock calls for review on Covid19 deaths

> after PHE confirms natural deaths have been

> counted as covid19 deaths.

That's just data sifting to me - you collect a lot of data then filter/sort it how you want.

I don't know how the government or PHE do that - sounds suspiciously like a communication issue if the government has got the wrong data.

[JohnL]

You have to treat the data without emotion and just pull out what is required - not what will help public opinion or make things look either worse or better.

It's conceivable you might want to know (one day) if Covid19 caused some kind of senility that makes traffic accidents more likely for those who were infected - but that's not the data that you'd ask for to trace the infection.

Someone running a database query needs to know exactly what is required.

[TE44]

Yes Johnl, the validity of the data for cause of death from covid has been under question

from just about the beginning. This questioning came from front line NHS staff who voices were quietened. It ?annot be without emotion now.

[JohnL]

I see the issues here

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/matt-hancock-review-coronavirus-deaths-miscounted-a4501466.html

Got to say I really missed the pub this week for work related reasons :)

[Blah Blah]

I would argue that excess deaths are excess deaths, and are hard to get away from as a statistic. All other meandering and methods of data sorting are driven by vested interests imo. Those excess death figures are clear enough for anyone to understand to be fair. There can be no other explanation than the pandemic.

Some people also seem to think hospitals completely shut down to admit Covid patients only. This just isn't the case. Only non-emergency treatment was postponed. You only have to look at what is happening in places like Brazil (and the USA to some extent) to see the impact of those countries that have ignored standard epidemic practise. Now imagine the outcome if no-one isolated, or applied social distancing. The benefits of those things in a pandemic were understood even in 1918.

[TE44]

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1308454/cancer-treatment-delay-nhs-coronavirus

Blah blah, cancer experts are raising concerns over lockdown. This isn't about some people thinking or assuming wrongly this is the reality of the action of lockdown. I have known 2 people who have been diagnosed and died from cancer in a short time in the last 5 weeks. I also know 3 people who have had elderly parents die from what they believe to be natural cause but recorded as covid deaths. Swedens had 412 deaths under 70 years old from 5,600 deaths (aprox). Only time will tell. Yes I agree the benefits along with adverse reactions have been studied not only from 1918 but looking at quarantine, solitary isolation. It makes you wonder why the vulnerable were so badly cared for. Why, as deaths go down, are new guidelines being given that was not deemed neccesary when deaths were high. Madagascar how are they doing, must have a look.

Edited to say Madagascar locked down, sorry forgot why that country stuck in my mind, of course the Artemesia drink.

[Blah Blah]

The concerns being raised are around people not seeking treatment when they should be. That is a different scenario to people dying because treatment has been denied. The solution to that is in messaging. Is in encouraging people to still seek medical advice if they are concerned or unwell.

I have to strongly disagree with your opinion around lockdown though. Epidemics that take hold have to be controlled and fast. You only have to look at what is happening in Brazil to see the alternative. And that alternative by the way, is every available bed being filled by ICU covid patients. How many beds are left for patients with other conditions in that scenario? Have a think about that.

There will always be lessons to learn, things that could have been done better. Hindsight is a wonderful thing of course. But be under no illusion about what would have happened without that lockdown. 900 hospital deaths a day were bad enough at the peak. Had we locked down two weeks earlier, we would have avoided thousands of deaths. The same can be said of testing elderly patients before sending them back to care homes. Letting everyone get the virus is just not an option without a vaccine or effective drug treatment in reserve.

[TE44]

Yes blah Blah, people were giving information from the beginning that was contractive, we do not know how it would have been if it had been done different. We know people have been terrified, we know there has been a lack of transparency around work done in labs and effect of that work. We know we have lost many of our rights, we know we must do as we're ttold, we know to speAk out against the given narrative regardless of whether you disagree with the job you are asked to do does not make sense. Mandatory has become a word that means not to question, surprise sorprise. Why do you think people were scared to go to hospital, yes there are things to learn. Maybe a good idea not to terrify people to death, confuse people with there info into not wanting to live anymore. Because they know best. Face masks , have they changed the law no, will ut be a criminal or civil matter. Do the please legally have the power to fine people who don't wear one, do they have the right to access to your medical conditions or do they prefer people choose whether to put themselves at risk with physical conditions they have rather than not wearing a mask. Because they are still terrified, not just of the virys but how they may be treated and looked on if the dont. Where is the info from governments regarding what people can do for themselves. Our best interest what a joke. You dont have to be an economist to see what damage has been done. It equals lives. For a virus that would have been so much worse if we hadnt done what we done. What a joke, I suppose we'll se these figures next. Symptomatic diagnosis, counted without being tested, what did Hancock say again, remember the figures include those not tested. So long ago now, well at least they opened the pubs early, showing how much our health is the priority.

[Blah Blah]

TE44, just stop it please.

You only have to look at Brazil to see what would have happened without a lockdown, and the the USA to see what happens if lockdown is eased too quickly.

And if you think hundreds of thousands of people flooding hospitals doesn't also damage economies and cost other lives then you don't understand a thing about pandemics.

At the end of the day, once the initial peak is suppressed, it becomes a balance of management between economy vs public health. The other thing to point out is that nothing was known about this virus six months ago. Have a think about that. Suddenly people are getting ill, many of them dying, and you don't know a thing about the new virus killing them. This is what governments had to face. Suppressing the peak, as fast as possible, is standard practise for combating pandemics because it works.

[TE44]

Blah blah. If the government knew very little about this new virus which has been studied and tested for a long time then maybe it is time to stop it, stop the work going on with animals and virus es they know little about. There is a level of study where there cN be safety without putting the planets life at risk. Then a cover up about work done with corona viruses and horseshoe bats. How on earth can we find thus connection with animals and humans. Oh wait a minute isnt that what the scientist are playing with. The government is very quick to give responsibility to us, ridiculous advice, while they are allowing science to become a danger to our existence. I understand you are probably a man/ woman of science, you havve your own opinions and rights to believe what you wish, I have no inclination to ask you to "stop it". I have a strong desire to see work these institutional health organisations are doing stopped. They are our biggest threat.

[diable rouge]

[TE44]

Ha ha yeah a rabbit hole for you.I like digging, mazes labarynths. Theres a cosy wee room before the entrance, masks only, no speaking lou, no singing and def no thinking for yourself put yer feet up. Ha ha.

[j.a.]

Blah Blah,

Remember please that TE44 is an avowed "anti-vaxxer". Check out their post history for examples of such drivel.

I respect that you feel they are worth debating (personally I wouldn't waste my time), but please remember that people like him/her are dangerous individuals who do not believe in science, but rather in their own beliefs, (un)substantiated as they are by whatever corner of the internet they pay attention to.

[TE44]

J.a. its hardly breaking news. Keep up the divide.

[Blah Blah]

Thanks J.A. - It just insults my intelligence to let that kind of nonsense go, when at the peak, almost 1000 people a day were dying in our hospitals. I guess you have to be some kind of special fool to not see the evidence in that. And more than that, people espousing the views that TE44 does, are dangerous for public health. So I feel they have to be debunked and rebutted at every turn.

[malumbu]

Catching up on this thread I am thinking that the real issue is the lack of social distancing. So fair first point about congrigating, but why be a dick and ruin your post and then start flinging mud at those holidaying (be it Costa del Sol or Costa Del Cornwall). Same rules apply wherever you are - keep your distance, maintain hygiene and minimise risk.

NewWave Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> My Feeling is (cynical some may say) That the

> reason the government are making mask wearing

> mandatory in shops is so that when (not IF, WHEN)

> we have the 2nd wave because of all the idiots

> congregating in groups going on their holidays to

> spain etc etc There won't be another lockdown.

> Businesses cannot survive another lockdown

> therefore they can continue trading during the 2nd

> wave with the argument that 'staff and customers

> are wearing masks.

[TE44]

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1305988/Coronavirus-cover-up-china-experiment-theories-lab-wuhan-COVID-19-contagious

There is a concern around work being done and safety issues. Its crazy we have seen over the last few years a growing silencing of voices where people believe they are morally, intellectually, superior enough to quieten people who have different beliefs from them. They accussations of being dangerous for not thinking there way, i believe, is connected to the removing of rights we are now encountering. The war against nature, mans inability to stop interfering at a level that is so much more dangerous that words. The link I have given is in regards to a more recent article regarding some of the work done in labs, why it was banned over the danger of this research. Is this another thing officialdom has changed its mind over. Yes its been spoke about here even to the point Blah blah has agreed on these dangers.How many one off incidents does it take. Do I trust this inrerference this crreating and mutations of viruses done in these labs, no I do not. Does that make me dangerous to express what I believe. Justification , or what did blah blah say before, you cant have it all ways. I dont want it all ways, I want safety and transparency and an opening for different opinions. Is that so dangerous. Have a good day, im going out to enjoy the rain.

[Blah Blah]

And now TE44 does exactly what those called out for their irrefutable ignorance do - attack the experts, those who know what they are talking about, as some kind of complicit elite, before going off on some unrelated tangent to the point being discussed (wearing of masks).

TE44 - you are talking with someone who understands the science, down to the last protein and DNA marker, and that is why I can concur on the risks around molecular science. You have the chance to learn something, but you chose instead to spin conspiracy fantasies, driven by the latest sensationalist headline you picked up off the internet, because that fits your world view better. In reality, it is evidence of nothing.

None of these labs are working in secret btw. They all publish their findings to the relevant medical research communities. That is how things are peer reviewed or, as in the case of your Express (hardly a fountain of unbiased news) headline, find their way into the public domain. Apply some logic here. It is quite clear to anyone with an ounce of common sense that a) those papers are not secret and b) the Express has a clear agenda of serving conspiracy theories around a lab created mutation.

Zoonotic viruses exist. They sometimes hop onto humans. They sometimes lead to global pandemics. That has always been known and it is time the West ceased with its arrogance on this.

[Peckhampam]

The good thing is that TE44's rants are more or less incomprehensible

[KidKruger]

I actually can't think of any point of view, in any field or subject, where I would direct people to The Express for an authoritative explanation or justification of it.

Has it actually come to people thinking a tabloid is where reference material is obtained. Good grief.