General Strike ?

[Jessie]

Here here, Chippy Minton

[LocalTeacher]

Thank you all for your comments i am glad that everyone is posting their views on this subject.

it is very important that all views are heard , after all it is our/your money the government is spending/not spending

dave r i dont think that teachers striking will encourage more people to the profession far from it

and this is a massive problem.

i do not know of any colleagues that actually want to strike , i dont.

we have no choice.

who will speak for us if we dont stand up for ourselves and your kids?

will you daver??

seems unlikely

[Kes]

While I have sympathy for teachers - where is the money supposed to come from? Do we protect their financial interests and start sacking nurses? Firemen?

I work as a scientist for a medical research charity, I've had no pay rise for 5 years apart from a tiny bit this year that was more than wiped out by the increase in my pension contribution. My public sector husband was protected for quite a few years by pre-agreed pay deals, but is now taking big hits. I know friends in the private sector who have taken pay CUTS of 10% or more and plenty who lost their job (none of them bankers)

If teachers were being singled out I'd be right behind a strike, but almost everyone has been hit by this, it's just that most can't wield the threat of causing massive inconvenience to others to try and escape it themselves.

I'm sure there must be an issue with getting teachers in London but would we really want someone who'd choose to be an estate agent instead just because they can earn more? I doubt such people would go into teaching however much it paid. Surely no one goes into teaching for the money? It'd be great if the highest paid members of our society were teachers and others who's jobs help others, sadly that's just never going to happen.

I do my job because I enjoy it and hope that I may contribute to curing some pretty horrible diseases, I'd actually be earning more by now if I'd gone into teaching!

[LocalTeacher]

Kat,Londonmix what is wrong with teachers wanting less inspections , a reasonable workload and a job for life?

if you worked in a school or knew someone that did then you would know that is getting silly.

i am all for high standards in school , and want nothing more than good teaching practice praised and poor teaching to be dealt with.

A class teachers work is scrutinised by fellow teachers, their key stage leader, a senior management team line manager , the head, governers ,local education authority moderators long before ofsted and HM inspectors turn up . this is without mentioning students , teaching assistants and parents

fair enough. its important that we get it right and a lot of teachers take the endless work on the chin while others moan and get on with it.

we do it cos we luv teaching

a job for life ?

seems fair as we devote our life to our job

we deserve a decent pension if we do it for 40+years

we should not be making up the shortfall because governments have overspent elsewhere

dont be angry at teachers for getting what they are due

we are all paying more for less

being duped

but its ok cos tescos are whacking out unhappy chickens for 2.29

and its not too long till half term

[Administrator]

People should now be able to post again, please be careful when embedding things (there was a missing closing bracket on the above video which caused some browsers to break).

[ratty]

Took a twenty five percent pay cut in the first round of Tory cuts. Have recouped some of that by changing jobs but expect another cut in the future because of the Tory mishandling of the economy.

Will definitely support the teachers and will work from home on strike day. Let's hope someone supports the nhs when we get cut to ribbons over the next year!

[LondonMix]

My sister is a teacher as is one of my best friends so please don't presume to tell me I don't know anyone in the profession.

I think what I and perhaps Kes were saying is that during difficult financial times, entitlements across the board need to be reduced and that teachers are not owed a special exception. Pension schemes in the public sector have changed to reflect the new economic reality. Private sector pensions are non-existent for most and even the best private sector pensions pale in comparison to what is available in the public sector / teachers.

No one wants to deny teachers what the desire out of spite but most won't view your demands as necessities given that virtually everyone in the country lives without them. The reality is we the tax payer cannot afford it and we the working public don't view what you are being asked to accept a particular hardship relative to what others in our society have had to shoulder.

The idea anyone, much less a teacher, should be entitled to a job for life irrespective of performance is shocking and certainly would not be to the benefit of children. I would be interested to hear teachers' counter-proposal to the current inspection / accountability regime (as parents I think we agree even if the current system is flawed something must be in place). However, I suspect that if the union got what it wanted regarding compensation that the other concerns would disappear...

If the union was protesting funding of education, the creation of academies etc I would be very interested to hear the arguments you were putting forward and decide if I support the strike action. However, based on your responses, its clear that the strike action has nothing to do with anything of the sort.

LocalTeacher Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Kat,Londonmix what is wrong with teachers wanting

> less inspections , a reasonable workload and a job

> for life?

> if you worked in a school or knew someone that did

> then you would know that is getting silly.

> i am all for high standards in school , and want

> nothing more than good teaching practice praised

> and poor teaching to be dealt with.

> A class teachers work is scrutinised by fellow

> teachers, their key stage leader, a senior

> management team line manager , the head, governers

> ,local education authority moderators long before

> ofsted and HM inspectors turn up . this is without

> mentioning students , teaching assistants and

> parents

> fair enough. its important that we get it right

> and a lot of teachers take the endless work on the

> chin while others moan and get on with it.

>

> we do it cos we luv teaching

>

> a job for life ?

> seems fair as we devote our life to our job

> we deserve a decent pension if we do it for

> 40+years

> we should not be making up the shortfall because

> governments have overspent elsewhere

> dont be angry at teachers for getting what they

> are due

> we are all paying more for less

> being duped

> but its ok cos tescos are whacking out unhappy

> chickens for 2.29

> and its not too long till half term

[DaveR]

BTW, I agree that recruiting teachers in London may well be difficult because of the cost of living. At least part of the solution to that is either getting rid of, or significantly changing, the current national pay arrangements. Needless to say, this is opposed by teaching unions and in fact is one of the cited reasons for the proposed strike.

"a job for life ?

seems fair as we devote our life to our job

we deserve a decent pension if we do it for 40+years

we should not be making up the shortfall because governments have overspent elsewhere

dont be angry at teachers for getting what they are due

we are all paying more for less

being duped

but its ok cos tescos are whacking out unhappy chickens for 2.29"

Is this really the best case that you can make? It's pretty poor, I'm afraid.

As is this:

"I've said this many times, but the "I haven't got it, so why should someone else?" mentality stinks"

It's an obvious misrepresentation of the point being made i.e. current economic circumstances (and future predictions about longevity etc.) require a sober analysis of spending priorities in the short term, and pension arrangements in the long term. The outcome may not be pleasant for anyone, but shouting "it's not fair" like a spoilt child is neither impressive nor persuasive.

For the avoidance of doubt, I think teachers should be well paid, with a decent pension scheme, and have a high degree of job security. As matters stand they have all of these things and the actual/proposed changes will not have a significant impact. I would support higher pay and more generous terms if it was justified by both local labour market conditions and rigorous performance requirements, but, as noted, teachers (or at least teaching unions) are opposed to both of these things.

ETA - sorry for duplicating some of the sensible things said above.

[LocalTeacher]

the new economic reality?

wow london mix you really believe what your told dont you

who told you about this new economic reality?

the only reality for me is the amount of money i earn and the amount i have to pay out

your being told by millionaires that we are all in this together and that these cuts are necessary for stability.

stability ?

we bought lots of rotten bank shares because we were too scared the banks would run off/fold

(and leave us naked with only a few half broken industries and munitions left to hide behind)

and now the majority of us are paying it off

is that the reality you speak of?

the money they are cutting in benefits and clawing back from public sector wages/pensions is nothing

in comparison to the tax breaks being given to the multinationals

please dont believe everything DC/The daily mail tells you

im sure your sister is looking forward to working longer for less

makes you real happy in your job

more academies and free schools....er no thanks

all schools should be good enough without private backing , we pay enough in taxes for that

ps

very glad you have been given the role as "voice of the working/taxable people" hope it works out

i (a working/taxpayer) am very happy to pay for public services and pensions and all the benefits that come to those who work in our communities helping and caring for others

[Chippy Minton]

The idea that all teachers have a fantastic pension is a myth - Hutton found the average teacher pension in 2009-10 was ?9,806.

BTW, DaveR - the NUT and NASUWT are lay member organisations i.e. it is not "the teaching unions" per se that oppose this, it is the teachers that make up the membership.

[LondonMix]

The economic reality that I speak of is the fact that we spend more money than we have and that this cannot go on. The other reality I speak of is the fact that people are living longer and the demographic changes (larger proportion of the population being elderly) mean that pension arrangement that were feasible for our parents are impossible for us. Please explain how I'm delluded as I'd love to be wrong!

Avg pension includes people who spend short time in the profession. Any teacher who worked 40+ years in teaching would have a great pension. My partner in the civil service after 30 years will be entitled 75 percent of avg indexed salary adjusted for inflation for life. This plus state pension. Teacher pensions are somewhat different but not drastically. I know where of I speak...

[sophiesofa]

Are you discussing this in relation of the 'action short of strike' that starts on the 26th or generally full strike action?

[LocalTeacher]

"people are living longer and the demographic changes (larger proportion of the population being elderly) mean that pension arrangement that were feasible for our parents are impossible for us."

london mix that reads like a soundbite from lib/tory frontbench , they got you good and proper

we (royal usage) think that we (not royal) pay enough in taxes to pay for old folks to be looked after well, and for teachers/nurses/carers to be paid well and receive a sensible pension.

its about who shouts loudest .

at the moment (and for too long) big business has the ears of government that needs to change

its your/our/my money and i/we/you should want it spent on public services and infrastructure

not bank bail outs and weapons of war

dont believe the hype they want us scared and subdued

[LondonMix]

I'm not a conservative, lib-dem or Daily Mail Reader. I simply disagree with you for the reasons I have already made clear.

[????]

LocalTeacher Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "people are living longer and the demographic

> changes (larger proportion of the population being

> elderly) mean that pension arrangement that were

> feasible for our parents are impossible for us."

>

> london mix that reads like a soundbite from

> lib/tory frontbench , they got you good and

> proper

>

> we (royal usage) think that we (not royal) pay

> enough in taxes to pay for old folks to be looked

> after well, and for teachers/nurses/carers to be

> paid well and receive a sensible pension.

>

> its about who shouts loudest .

> at the moment (and for too long) big business has

> the ears of government that needs to change

> its your/our/my money and i/we/you should want it

> spent on public services and infrastructure

> not bank bail outs and weapons of war

> dont believe the hype they want us scared and

> subdued

ACTUALLY the two loudest shouters are big business/the bankers on one side and the big powerful Public Sector unions and the party in their pocket on the other. The people without a voice generally are the vast majority of private sector workers who on average earn less, have far less job security and non existant pensions compared to Most Public Sector workers.

[DaveR]

"The idea that all teachers have a fantastic pension is a myth - Hutton found the average teacher pension in 2009-10 was ?9,806."

Payable at 60, and index-linked. At present rates that is equivalent to having a cash pension pot of approx ?250,000 - not too shabby. And that was an average i.e. not representative of the pension a teacher would draw after a full career. And Hutton also found that employers' contributions to teachers' schemes averaged over 14% - pretty generous on any view. Useful to have the full picture rather than a single stat out of context.

BTW, DaveR - the NUT and NASUWT are lay member organisations i.e. it is not "the teaching unions" per se that oppose this, it is the teachers that make up the membership.

What's your point? They are unions made up of teachers i.e. "teaching unions", and intended to distinguish between their more vociferous members, and teachers who do not belong, or do but did not vote in favour of the strike i.e. 80% of the NUT's membership.

LocalTeacher - it's not getting any better. D- and stay behind after school.

[LocalTeacher]

???? everyone needs a voice

im not sure if this government are listening to the trade unions much at the mo

(mores the pity hence the threat of strikes)

they know that there are many more post cabinet job opportunities with bankers and their rich buddies than with a grateful electorate

Daver are you saying that teachers dont deserve the pensions they get ?

or that we should just put up , shut up and let this patchwork government stamp over our public services ?

[LondonMix]

Under the proposed new arrangements, a teacher starting the profession in his / her early twenties today and working to 65 would get 72% of his / her avg salary adjusted for inflation as a pension. This pension would of course continue to be adjusted for inflation post retirement as well and on top of this, teachers are entitled to basic state pension. I'd really like to understand in what way this is not a good pension? Anyone else would need to contribute 17.5% of their PRE-TAX income to have any chance at achieving such a pension and would be subject to variations in the stock market as well as variations in annuity rates. Given that the average classroom teacher's salary in England was circa 32,000 in 2008 we can see how expensive these pensions are for the state.

Its not question of deserving it but affording it and what would need to be sacrificed to do better.

[LocalTeacher]

congrats on the homework Londonmix im sure daver will mark it highly (depending on quotas)

what makes you think we cant afford the current arrangements ?

tv ?

did the government tell you ?

what else did they say ?

under this government you are going to need to fight for the things you want in your community

they dont care

where is your line ?

when would you strike/protest ?

[LondonMix]

I know we can't afford it because we already are spending more than we are taking in. If you are a teacher I hope you at least are familiar with the facts of the budget deficit.

This why it is necessary to cut costs and make sacrifices. Within my household, we've lost child benefit, my partner has had a wage freeze, my tax bill has gone up but no, I am not in the streets protesting yet. I am involved in my community though!

[DaveR]

LocalTeacher, this is getting embarrassing. Somebody who isn't a teacher tells you what the proposals are that you are so opposed to that you intend to strike, and asks you what your objection is, and you say....

"congrats on the homework Londonmix im sure daver will mark it highly (depending on quotas)"

If I took all your posts, squished them together, corrected the spelling, grammar and punctuation, and took out the repetition, it would sound just like the kind of utter crap I'd expect to hear from a nice, middle class, pretend Lefty first year undergraduate sounding off in the Union Bar during Freshers Week, about 15 minutes before they vomited all over themselves. Which I guess is what you are, some years into the future (I dread to think how many), but obviously no smarter. I only hope to sweet Jesus Christ you're not teaching my kids (though I suspect they could teach you a thing or two about how to construct an argument).

[LocalTeacher]

i dont believe londonmix asked me what my objections were daver

more question themselves as to why they could not understand

my grammar may be shoddy and my punctuation poor

but my thinking is spot on

for teachers its not just about pensions its about cuts across education.

you want cuts in the budget to your childrens school ?

what about hospitals ?

where is your line daver ?

cuts to rubbish collection ?

when would you protest ?

im not here to argue with people that spend all their time on the eastdulwichborum telling everybody how well their perfectly punctuated arguments are constructed

(nooffenceadmin)

just to voice the opinions of a localteacher

if i do teach your kids they will be receiving outstanding tuition from me

hopefully they have more respect for the teaching profession than you seem to possess

[edhistory]

Which local school?

John K

[Chippy Minton]

DaveR Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> What's your point? They are unions made up of

> teachers i.e. "teaching unions", and intended to

> distinguish between their more vociferous members,

> and teachers who do not belong, or do but did not

> vote in favour of the strike i.e. 80% of the NUT's

> membership.

>

You are trying to imply any industrial action is because "the union" wants it but the teachers themselves don't. That just isn't true - 92% voted in favour of action short of a strike and 82.5% voted in favour of strike action in the NUT's ballot.

[DaveR]

"82.5% voted in favour of strike action in the NUT's ballot"

....on a 27% turnout. Hence 80% of the NUT's membership did not vote for a strike. I don't just make this stuff up, you know. The purpose in using the phrase is to ensure that I don't tar all teachers, or even most of them, with the 'idiot' brush.

Anecdotally, I have met plenty of teachers who are union members for various reasons associated with the less exciting aspects of labour relations, but are frankly embarrassed at the political posturing of the leadership and their conference cheerleaders. I call them "sensible teachers", and I suspect they are in the majority.

LocalTeacher:

"if i do teach your kids they will be receiving outstanding tuition from me"

It's possible. Maybe you save up your flabby thinking and incoherent ranting for your spare time.

"hopefully they have more respect for the teaching profession than you seem to possess"

It's not the teaching profession; it's you.