Peckham Rye Zippos Circus & Protest

[modernmum]

Free speech is important, I thnk the case is put really well by comedian Stuart Lee

see clip?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAfnfQtoTNA

[Chippy Minton]

Tom - I've got no problem with horses in a circus, but you have every right to protest in a public place, display your banners and take your pictures. It is also absolutely ridiculous to be threatened with arrest if "a member of the public complained."

It's so weird how some people can bang on about our freedoms and defend things like the EDL protests in Asian communities yet think you have over stepped the line here - may be that's middle class liberals for you!

[Saffron]

Free speech is important, but so is accuracy. If people are protesting against something that isn't really happening, then what is that exactly? Harassment? Offence? Fine, I guess people have the right to be offensive (as this forum regularly demonstrates!). But don't expect to be taken seriously in that case (as this forum also regularly demonstrates!!).

[Saffron]

modernmum Wrote:

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> Free speech is important, I thnk the case is put

> really well by comedian Stuart Lee

> see clip?

>

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAfnfQtoTNA

Insightful and hilarious!

[Chippy Minton]

How can you be accurate about something that is completely subjective? You think the circus isn't cruel, Tom thinks it is.

[Saffron]

There is a legally defined standard in the UK.

[Saffron]

But feel free to challenge it.

[Saffron]

(Don't expect to be taken seriously.)

[Jessie]

Sounds to me like the police presence was a bit far fetched. Not that I agree with the cause of protest per se but we're allowed surely to voice opposition?

[Saffron]

Chippy Minton Wrote:

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> How can you be accurate about something that is

> completely subjective? You think the circus isn't

> cruel, Tom thinks it is.

Also re, accuracy: WHERE is the OP getting the information that circus horses invariably suffer tendon injuries? Show us the vets' reports or peer-reviewed journal articles please.

I'm not talking about subjective cruelty. I'm talking about objective diagnosis joint/tendon injury in horses.

[Jessie]

The OP didn't organise the protest though, did he? He just joined in.

[Michael Palaeologus]

I wonder whether the right to free speech is being being confused with the right to stop something I dont like?

The former is fine, you made your point. The latter? No. You have no right to try and stop something you dont like as it is legal.

[DJKillaQueen]

I agree with Saffron and Michael here. Like I said, the circus is used because it's an easy target. I don't know how intrusive this years protest has been (maybe I'll see for myself tonight) but my experience of two years ago only polarised me against the protestors on this particular case. I also too suspect the claim of tendon damage to be a red herring. Horses tendons are exremely strong. It's what enables them to jump and kick, and rear up when feeling threatened, but also tendon strains are common from a whole variety of use, just like we humans pull muscles here and there. That's why we have vets (wild animals rarely have the benefit of vetinary care). For me it's clutching at straws because after all, what else is there to find to support a claim of cruelty? Nothing.

[Jessie]

Well, don't get me wrong, I think there are much worse things to be protesting about. But surely there are much better things for the police to be doing, too. Personally, I took my son to zippos two years ago and it was brilliant, and I'm a committed vegetarian and have been for over 20 years. Thought the animals seemed happy and well tended, and wasn't there a big thing in the guardian a couple of years back too verifying their animal friendliness?

[DJKillaQueen]

I think there are a lot of checks and standards that have to be satisfied regarding animal welfare, and any reputable organisation or business will adhere to them. People that engage in animal cruelty don't generally put it on display for all to see. I think the fact that Zippo's stables and paddock and horses are there for all to see at any point says it all. These are very well cared for animals.

The Police action may well have been OTT, but again, we don't know if a complaint was made to them. Some protestors can be pretty full on.

These people know they have no case. If they did, they could lobby the RSPCA, government etc. They pick on the public because their only hope of achieving their agenda is to put the circus out of business. They've protested pretty much every time the circus comes to twon for years now. I doubt they'd ever convinced a single person to throw away their ticket and not attend the show.

I'd have far more time for them and their cause if they focused on genuine aspects of animal cruelty but sadly, it's often the nature of extremists, to lose perspective in what otherwise is a genuinely valid cause in itself.

[Loz]

modernmum Wrote:

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> Free speech is important, I thnk the case is put

> really well by comedian Stuart Lee

> see clip?

>

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAfnfQtoTNA

I'm not sure what Stewart Lee is complaining about here. He was the subject of a successful protest. How do the Christians differ from Tom's animal rights group, a bunch of students or the suffragettes. He seems to be more worried that their reasoning was based on religion, rather than any issue about protest and free speech.

[DJKillaQueen]

Religious protestors may be mad (my view only of course lol) but as long as any protest or act of protest is within the law then freedom of speech stands. Where things get cloudy though are where the state are too oppressive on what they allow as freedom of speech and what they suppress (always subjective depending on the state). It's a classic argument about the line and where it's drawn isn't it. We like to think we are fair in the UK with this line, but I'm not sure that's always true.

[Tom Micklewright]

N.B: animal circuses aren?t my speciality, and I only popped along to the demo to see the people running it, who are from the animal charity: http://www.captiveanimals.org/our-work/circuses I did just turn up to say hello, as I run the local Vegan Society in Dulwich. @DulwichVeganSoc tweet me!

Cruelty to through transport and confinement horses:

http://www.ad-international.org/animals_in_entertainment/go.php?id=504&si=1&ssi=10

Replies to people:

Saffron and Michael Palaeologus: legal standard in the UK - doesn't mean anything, there used to be a legal standard that said women and black people could not vote! (I dont expect to be take seriously) I do expect to stop things I dont like. You sound like a Dictator Michael! its called democracy, if you dont like it, change it.

DJKIllaQueen - not sure why you are calling me an extremist, you are bad as Huguenot! Is it extreme that I don?t agree horses should be made to walk on 2 legs? Are walking horses natural?

Alan Medic: although horse riding is the least of my concerns, I don?t agree with it. See here for the 300+ horses that die every year on UK courses: http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/n/CAMPAIGNS/horse/ALL//video.htm

Cactus ? yes agreed, transportation is an issue

Steveo ? the fact that you bought up ants in a discussion about horses shows you?ve run out of steam!

Note ? why people campaign against animals in circuses:

Ethics: We maintain that forcing any animal to perform for human entertainment is unethical and cannot be justified. Furthermore, we believe that the use of animals in circuses sends a damaging message to the general public, and particularly children and young people, by the implication that animals can be manipulated for our amusement despite the animal gaining no benefit from the practice. The practice implies that the animals? own lives hold no inherent value in their own right; the use of circus animals therefore have negative educational impact.

Welfare: By virtue of the travelling nature of many circuses, the temporary accommodation for animals, the confined quarters, the training practices and the exposure of animals to unnatural situations during performances, we maintain that animal welfare cannot be guaranteed in circuses. In addition, some species of animal may have the added disadvantage of being kept in an unnatural climate, unnatural social groupings and be prevented from carrying out their natural behaviours as a direct result of being kept by a circus. This is particularly the case with wild, or non-native species of animal.

The Born Free Foundation, The British Veterinary Association, The Captive Animals? Protection Society and the RSPCA welcome the news that the Government has begun work on draft legislation to set out the exact details of the upcoming ban on the use of wild animals in circuses. We further restate our intention to support Government in any way possible in order to bring about the implementation of such a ban at the earliest possible opportunity.

Does anyone know whether Zippo pay for the use of the park and pay for advertising on the railings etc?

Tom

ps. has anyone here eaten a horse before?

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

I've eaten horse in France. Don't see what that has to do with circuses.

[steveo]

No, but i'm going to start eating them

[DJKillaQueen]

'DJKIllaQueen - not sure why you are calling me an extremist, you are bad as Huguenot! Is it extreme that I don?t agree horses should be made to walk on 2 legs? Are walking horses natural? '

If you read my posts you will see I am speaking from my experience of a couple of protestors that tried to stop me going to the circus two years ago. Thay clearly were ignorant, rude and extreme. To accuse a person of supporting cruelty to animals, as they did I, simply because I did not agree with them regarding the horses at the circus, is extreme and typical of the kind of people that front these kinds of campaigns.

Also Thomas, have you ever seen the show at Zippos? I've been every time they are in town for the past three years and I've never seen the horses made to 'walk' on two legs. I have seen them rear up as part of the act a couple of times but never 'walk'. It's this kind of misinformation that makes me have no time for your argument. But you are at least consistent in that you think no animal should work. I, like many, disagree with you on that. It is at best a moral argument but not an argument about cruelty, if an animal is well looked after and cared for.

Animals in captivity at least have the benefit of vetinary treatment if things go wrong. In the wild they don't.

And yes, Zippo's does pay for use of the park and are required to obtain an events licence etc. You can easily verify that with the council, and parks management team.

[Loz]

I've not eaten horse. I've always wanted to, but never had the chance. I don't see the difference between eating horse and cow or sheep.

I've eaten kangaroo and caiman alligator (Brazil), though. I'd happy recommend them both. I've also eaten piranha, but they just taste like any fish, really.

[silverfox]

Tom Micklewright, get a life

[Soya]

Oh dear. So, a gent with a passion for animal rights starts a thread that seems to be a discussion about the policing of a small protest. He gives further context, explaining his point of view reasonably enough, and even implies that his primary reason for having being at the protest was to talk to the organizers; and yet here you are on the East Dulwich Forum, telling somebody you've probably never met before to get a life.

I generally try to adhere to the maxim that one should not say anything on the internet that they wouldn't be willing to say to somebody face-to-face. Would you?

[Loz]

Tom Micklewright Wrote:

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> Ethics: We maintain that forcing any animal to

> perform for human entertainment is unethical and

> cannot be justified.

And there is where you depart from the opinions of most of the general public. Most people do not share this view. From horse racing to movies like 'Babe' to keeping pets the UK public are quite happy for animals to entertain them.

I think if you could prove animals were being harmed you'd have a point, but looking at those sites, they seem high on insinuations, but low on facts. The page you pointed to trailed a Zippos circus and reported back that the horses were in the transporter for four hours (though it travelled for less than an hour), but failed to show that this is in any way detrimental to the animal.