Compulsory Face coverings on Public Transport.

[Blah Blah]

TE44, we have an excess death count, compared to the year on year average, that can be explained in no other way than being the result of this pandemic. In the winter, if a second wave hits, we will see another excess death count, compared to the figures seasonal flu delivers. We have a moral duty to protect life and the only way that can be effectively done during a pandemic is in the way that governments around the world have responded.

The cost to the economy of doing nothing is bigger longer term. Why? because business is equally hit hard when millions of people are too sick to work at any given time, and health resources, unable to cope with the pandemic, can't treat anyone else either. Why do you think Spanish Flu (the last unfettered global pandemic) killed an estimated 40 million plus? Why do you think that had a depressive economic impact? Why do you think Manchester, who did employ what we would now recognise as social distancing and lock down measures, had less than other cities that did not in 1918?

And by other doctors/ scientists who have different ideas and experiences, please don't say you mean the discredited voices behind hogwash like 'Plandemic'. Those people are deliberately peddling claims they know are not true, and are a disgrace to science.

[Blah Blah]

TE44 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Blah blah Can you tell me why people with lung

> problems are exempt from wearing one on transport

> if there is no problem wearing one.

You really have to ask this? Some of those with compromised respiratory conditions may need clearer airways in a way that healthy people don't. They are not being told to not wear masks, only that they do not need to if it compromises their condition.

[Blah Blah]

TE44 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> https://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT0017301

> 7

>

> An old study on facemasks, pre covid.

Oddly enough, this page has been doing the rounds from the pandemic deniers over the last 24 hours. It is rather telling as to the sources you are following TE44 ;)

This relates to a particular types of mask, that has many layers and is not really designed for all day use. Surgical masks are much lighter. Hypoxia is something usually experienced at altitude, where the air is thinner and less 02 dense. Different people have different thresholds for hypoxia. This is why not everyone can be a fighter pilot for example. The likelihood of a doctor or nurse suffering from hypoxia from wearing a mask is rare. But should anyone feel nauseous, common sense requires they simply take a break to recover. And that is exactly what nurses and doctors do.

[TE44]

Bkah blah I know its an old study, I thought it would be less likely to be related to conspiracy as pre covid. It is the first time I have ever seen that link so your assumptions of the sources you believe I am following shows how easy it is to believe when people differ from your own views it is easier to group people together. I was actualky speaking from a personal view and what I would regard as common sense. If your inhalation is restricted I believe that has an effect.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

In that case, doctors, surgeons, nurses, dentists, vets etc would be dropping like flies every day since they wear masks and ?breathe in their own breaths?. Honestly, I despair.

TE44 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Bkah blah I know its an old study, I thought it

> would be less likely to be related to conspiracy

> as pre covid. It is the first time I have ever

> seen that link so your assumptions of the sources

> you believe I am following shows how easy it is to

> believe when people differ from your own views it

> is easier to group people together. I was actualky

> speaking from a personal view and what I would

> regard as common sense. If your inhalation is

> restricted I believe that has an effect.

[TE44]

Blah Blah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> TE44, we have an excess death count, compared to

> the year on year average, that can be explained in

> no other way than being the result of this

> pandemic. In the winter, if a second wave hits, we

> will see another excess death count, compared to

> the figures seasonal flu delivers. We have a moral

> duty to protect life and the only way that can be

> effectively done during a pandemic is in the way

> that governments around the world have responded.

>

>

> The cost to the economy of doing nothing is bigger

> longer term. Why? because business is equally hit

> hard when millions of people are too sick to work

> at any given time, and health resources, unable to

> cope with the pandemic, can't treat anyone else

> either. Why do you think Spanish Flu (the last

> unfettered global pandemic) killed an estimated 40

> million plus? Why do you think that had a

> depressive economic impact? Why do you think

> Manchester, who did employ what we would now

> recognise as social distancing and lock down

> measures, had less than other cities that did not

> in 1918?

>

> And by other doctors/ scientists who have

> different ideas and experiences, please don't say

> you mean the discredited voices behind hogwash

> like 'Plandemic'. Those people are deliberately

> peddling claims they know are not true, and are a

> disgrace to science.

Sorry on phone and miss posts. The disgrace to science should absolutely be under question. We are being put at risk by research which is danferous and revolves around money. You mention Hudy Mitovic a woman who worked for years in labs including level4 safety. She worked on vaccines and was very much part of the scientific community. If she is peddling lies why is'nt she given a chance to debate her claims on a public platform. Why is she being banned and vilified. Why can't the public be given the chance to decide for themselves. Oh of course we're not able to hear different truths, opinions, experiences. Let a discussion be allowed, i actually believe now people in science cannot do what Judy Mikovit has done and admit to believing she was doing the right think whilst she worked with HIV and Ebola only to realise she was wrong and how crooked the industry is.

[Blah Blah]

I knew it. That woman spiked her own samples to falsify clinical results. If you can not see why that would be extremely dangerous in clinical research that may go on to be used on millions of patients, there is no helping you. She was no more than a lab technician and was fired and discredited for it and rightly so. Her claims in Plandemic are hogwash and she absolutely knows this. This pretty accurately sums it up.

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/generalinfectiousdisease/86461

She is playing on people like you who have inadequate understanding of biological science to peddle her own conspiracy theories. Please don't insult my intelligence with any more of her tripe.

And here is a sobering example for you.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/brazil-bolsonaro-coronavirus-cases-deaths-reopening-second-wave/2020/06/15/3282d27e-ae4b-11ea-856d-5054296735e5_story.html

Brazil ignored everything and did little and is now in a complete mess. That is what would have happened across the world had every country ignored the advice of epidemiology.

[TE44]

https://londonreal.tv/responding-to-criticism-surrounding-my-viral-documentary-the-plandemic-dr-judy-mikovits/

Judy Mikovit, "responding to criticism surrounding my viral documentary the plandemic"

On freedom platform London Real. It is not about following one way, I find it insulting information is deemed to dangerous for the public to hear, especially with the conflicting information that has been given out. This woman is one of many who have spoken out and been silenced. She has first hand information along with others who have and are working against what they have found to be situations and research that are taking us down a very dangerous path. There is a recognition of how whilst working in this industry that it is not the majority of scientists under question, they're intention and belief

is to do what is best. I don't like 2 sides seperately, why can't we hear them together. Let us make our own judgement on what we hear. Health services weren't able to cope with the vulnerable people needing treatment. All the studies done on quarantine, solitary confinement etc over the years, the effect of coming out of lockdown to a different world, where choices can't even be made sense of. A disgrace.media a disgrace and a right to hear/have different views being disncouraged long before the pandemic. I am more worried about there dangerous research in labs where pathogens are mutated and made more viralent, kknowing the potential for mistakes to be made. What a disgrace. Gain of function.

Edited to say wharever your title in health it is obvious poverty and health are linked. We have o idea of the loss of life that will come from the consequences of our experts advice. And so they continue taking our choices and freedoms away. Scared to death, building a safe world. where they will lead us. Except when it doesnt pan out how they say, then its diwn to us for not doing this or doing that. When we all know the rules have been broken all along, everyone justifying there own behaviou and of course pointing the finger at the same time. Good night.

[Blah Blah]

Now you are posting links to websites that do nothing but peddle conspiracy theories! And you are going to still pretend you don't seek out this stuff? Who next? Alex Jones?

Of course Level 4 labs work on pathogens, there would be no vaccines if they didn't. But these are also the highest security level labs because of those biohazards. Again her response plays on your ignorance of how pathogenic science works, because she wants you to think that the Chinese or some governmental power created Covid. Scientists far more qualified and specialised than her can tell from the genome sequence where a virus originates and if it has been synthetically altered in any way.

I have covered all of this before so I am not going through it again.

[lameduck]

I know

this is going off the thread somewhat, They say the warm weather drys virus out

so it dies on surfaces, in the sun. So possibly will slow transmission, for example

postman touching your gate, and your letter etc. Whats worrying me, in the summer this will die back

just like seasonal flu, And peoples attitudes, especially the young, no masks, or face coverings, gay abandon, riots.

high street open, we are all back to normal

It will just bounce back when weather changes, We may be back in lockdown come October

[TE44]

Blah blah Assumw what you wish. Its so easy to sum people up. Its a typical way of shutting people up. Yes we have been over it before and have different opinions. This woman has made this video on a atform where she is free to speak uncensored and unedited. In response to accusations of conspiracies. Imagine people of science agreeing to unedited interviews. Hey theres an idea.or maybe scientist with different opinions are frightened the unedited vesrsion of events will be to dangerous to hear. Might even put them in a situation of saying they don't understand. Remember the last pandemic. The vaccine. Cospiraloons on the streets because there children suddenly diagnosed with narcolepst , bloody conspiraloons. Oh no wait a minute. We do not need yo be protected from information regardless off how different it is from our own view. Hopefully we will see people coming together. New platforms emerging that breaks down a system of being fed a pile of bs which encourages people to divide. Imagine that a conspiracy to be heard and to try and break down the divide, an open platform. I can't believe how easy it would be to have a conservation and debunk scientist/doctors who do not believe the narrative and will put there experiences of Covid over. Instead they are silenced. Its not one doctor. Its not about who know? the most.

[TE44]

Blah blah Assumw what you wish. Its so easy to sum people up. Its a typical way of shutting people up. Yes we have been over it before and have different opinions. This woman has made this video on a atform where she is free to speak uncensored and unedited. In response to accusations of conspiracies. Imagine people of science agreeing to unedited interviews. Hey theres an idea.or maybe scientist with different opinions are frightened the unedited vesrsion of events will be to dangerous to hear. Might even put them in a situation of saying they don't understand. Remember the last pandemic. The vaccine. Cospiraloons on the streets because there children suddenly diagnosed with narcolepst , bloody conspiraloons. Oh no wait a minute. We do not need yo be protected from information regardless off how different it is from our own view. Hopefully we will see people coming together. New platforms emerging that breaks down a system of being fed a pile of bs which encourages people to divide. Imagine that a conspiracy to be heard and to try and break down the divide, an open platform. I can't believe how easy it would be to have a conservation and debunk scientist/doctors who do not believe the narrative and will put there experiences of Covid over. Instead they are silenced. Its not one doctor. Its not about who knows the most. All this knowledge now about face masks .regardless that its not a new phenomena and 7 months later its decided its what should be done. Im sure the science in that is to difficult for us to understand. Opening libraries, books crossing hands, whatever next cash will be safe again or maybe not. I haven't met anyone who hasn't been thrown into a srate of confusioN THROUGH THIS. Iexpect not for the scientificly minded who are desperately trying to justify A system yhat hasn't had a clue.

[seenbeen]

There is only one conspiracy theory worth considering imo and that is what the hell was going on in China, specifically Wuhan, last December?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-51409801

[DulwichFox]

What is most likely..

(1) The virus started on a Market Stall in a back street in Wuhan.

(2) It was developed in a Wuhan Laboratory

London: The Wuhan Institute of Virology received a shipment of deadly viruses from Canada's Microbiology Lab

months before the outbreak of Covid-19, newly-released documents confirm.

https://www.timesnownews.com/international/article/wuhan-lab-received-shipment-of-deadliest-viruses-from-canada-months-before-covid-19-outbreak-report/607345

Must of been the Market stall.

[Blah Blah]

TE44 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Blah blah Assumw what you wish......... Its not about who

> know? the most.

And imagine a world where people don't get taken in by cranks because they lack any expert knowledge of their own! No-one ever questions the surgeon about to save their life, but expert geneticists and virologists can be questioned because a discredited lab technician who doctored the samples she was working on aligns herself with conspiracy theories. You buy into this stuff because you want to and because you lack the common sense to wonder why millions of research centers and qualified professionals around the world don't share the conclusions of this one discredited worker. Of course she has an axe to grind. She got caught cheating science. And once a cheat, always a cheat.

[Blah Blah]

DulwichFox Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

London: The Wuhan Institute of Virology

> received a shipment of deadly viruses from

> Canada's Microbiology Lab

> months before the outbreak of Covid-19,

> newly-released documents confirm.

>

Wuhan has been working on bats virals for a long time, as a specialist area, involving an international team of scientists. Bats are the most virulent species on the planet and labs all over the world work on that. You might want to sensationalise one shipment but there are thousands of these shipments moving between labs all around the world. Level 4 labs are incredibly secure. They have to be. These headlines are indicative of finding something to fit a narrative. In truth, the shipment of virals between labs is commonplace. In addition, the virals created in labs are pseudovirals. In other words, they have had the ability to activate removed. This is also something I have explained before on this forum.

[Spartacus]

Sadly, Beijing that had a period of 57 days without new cases is seeing a new spike.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-53074076

Doesn't this tell you why wearing masks in public on transport and possibly the 14 day quarantine period is required to help the UK keep numbers low going forward?

If Beijing is seeing new cases after nearly 2 months of being Covid free then it occurs to me that this is a virus that we currently have limited information on how it will reoccur and no control over how it behaves.

[TE44]

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/the-nih-gain-of-function-research-decision-wasnt-partisan/

Heres a link about "gain of function research". I don't believe anyone reads one article and agrees with all views. Blah bkah you seem to be suggesting people cannot agree and disagree with people. This research was stopped due to the fact it was not safe. would suggest people educate themselves especially on safety issues surrounding thes labs. I do not have the time to put links and Blah Blah mentions thus woman was a discredited lab technician, she was arrested , held for 5days no charges were brought. I would love to hear a debate and accusations put to her, where we are given a chance to hear something more than the usual continuation of discrediting.I can't help feel these people that believe others must be silenced or discredited are so frightened there own reality and importance of there knowledge is under question its impossible to even consider there may be something of interest to be heard. What a shame, to close off everything because theres only a choice of believe everything or nothing.

No one questions the surgeon about to save your lif because you dying. Although if a chance arises after surgery many people do. Why not, that is how we understand.If its as simple as ond doctor discrediting colleagues, woyldn' it be easier to discredit her by having a public debate. Instead of people attatching her to a story that is spread by people who are worried they are questioned on there expertise. What a sorry state of affairs.

[SpringTime]

Now that this simple mask rule has finally been put in place I've kept an eye on adherence

Where I'm sitting today so far I have seen thousands (no joke - actually thousands) of people on passing buses with no masks on. Either they're getting on buses without masks or they're taking them off after embarking.

This is dumb. Makes me wonder about hand sanitizer as well. Please remind those that you know who use public transport to mask-up for the time being. Cheers.

[ianr]

Pugwash wrote on 16 June:

-------------------------------

> I have no problems in wearing

> a mask but as a person who lip

> reads as I have only partial

> hearing, it would be helpful

> if other mask wearers take in to

> consideration that I may ask them

> to repeat anything that is said to

> me. I have head the experience of

> people talking to me and I have

> asked them to repeat for them

> to get very aggressive .

The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Wearing of Face Coverings on Public Transport) (England) Regulations 2020, SI 2020/592, http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/592/part/3/made, say:

"3.?(1) No person may, without reasonable excuse, use a public transport service without wearing a face covering.

...

4. For the purposes of regulation 3(1), the circumstances in which a person ('P') has a reasonable excuse include those where?

...

(b) P is travelling with, or providing assistance to, another person ('B') and B relies on lip reading to communicate with P; ..."

Whether it's manageable, practicable, safe, sensible. considerate of others, etc in any situation is another matter of course, but at least you're potentially, after explanation, saved the worry of its being deemed a breach of the regulation.

[TE44]

https://mbio.asm.org/content/5/6/e02366-14

Here is a link to "gain of function research". If you are interested about what goes on in labs I would suggest reading a number of diffeeent descriptions. I believe the US funded this research in Wuhan labs. I'll post a link but have to edit to add it.

https://conservativedailypost.com/evidence-fauci-funded-virus-gain-of-function-study-making-transmission-to-humans-possible/

Does anyone know if this has been confirmed. Although its no longer banned this research, I believe it is an accident waiting to happen if it hasn't aleeady.

[Blah Blah]

TE44. You don't understand the science. That is fine. But I do.

Let me put it to you this way.

There are people who believe the Earth is flat. They really do believe that and spend a lot of time trying to bend the laws of physics to prove it. They reject all space photography, even though many nations (some of them with strong distrust of each other) have taken space photography for decades. This is the rabbit hole you are trying to argue with me. A minority of people can believe something that absolutely is true, is not. Should we be giving credence to flat earthers and their theories? Absolutely not. Should we be listening to the opinion of one discredited former lab technician over the hundreds of thousands of international experts who say something that is proven through repeated scientific analysis? Absolutely not.

A key claim of Mikovits is that wearing a mask activates the virus. This is just completely untrue. She doesn't get away with it because hundreds of thousands of virologists can explain precisely why it is untrue. That leaves only two conclusions. That she is deliberately telling lies, or that she has no understanding of virology. Which do you think it is?

And just to emphasize the point further. There are trained biologists who think evolution is a lie. They are strong advocates of creationism. Like Mikovits, they ignore the overwhelming evidence for, and amplify one or two holes that enable them to bend the science. The point is that people who study science are not immune to being sucked into stronger beliefs in other things that conflict with the science, to the point they bend the science to fit their narrative. Mikovits fits into that category. It is dangerous to give these people any credence.

[Blah Blah]

To answer your question of gain of function research. Yes it is highly dangerous. Yes some countries have banned it as a matter of course. Yes there are ethical debates to be had, just as with many areas of molecular biology. The point is, why is it an area of research? What is the intent and what might be the potential gain?

This link takes a balanced view of the debate as it stands.

https://mbio.asm.org/content/5/4/e01730-14

The history of scientific development has always involved elements of risk. What matters is the safety measures put in place to mitigate that risk. We no longer fill our houses (or bodies if we can help it) with poisonous toxins, like the Victorians did, because we place thorough research and safety before use. Sometimes though, there is a compromise between gain and risk.

Zoonotic viruses already have the ability to 'shift' in a major way, without the help of a lab. And the more the population grows on the planet, encroaching into areas shared with wildlife, the more likely we are to see future major zoonotic mutations.

The idea behind GOF research, is to be able to predetermine shift, and develop vaccines, before it happens, thus potentially mitigating future serious pandemics. It is not beyond the realms of science either, to one day have sequenced every zoonotic virus that exists, and have an array or ready made vaccine recipes to respond with speed to any major pandemic. You only have to look at the chaos, both economic and otherwise, this pandemic has caused, to see why science would want to find a faster way to respond to new pathogens.

[TE44]

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00210-5

Here is another more up to date link on the rules around this research being revisited. and a calling for more transparency around these experiments from US disease researchers while others argued greater transparency could make it harder to approve necessary research. very interesting. There is enough natural mutations, can't help feel this type of research is interfering with nature. There is already mistrust around vaccines and the inabilitity to recognise damage done by vaccines regardless of governments vaccine damage schemes.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00210-5

here is also a link regarding the flumist mutation found in 2017, I am not sure if this was found in the nasal spray but I do know there was a mutation found but If anyone knows that would be interesting. Influenza subtype H3N2 is one of several subtypes shown to mutate when grown in chicken eggs. I'm not going to go on but I find using animals in this way where mutations are only found after being introduced into the human system, very frightening. when I first read about this it was hailed as a discovery. If this is the nasal flu vaccine. how it would help invaccine research. I would ne more interested in the effect it may have had on my child if I had allowed this to be done. Sorry I know Ive went on.

[Blah Blah]

Much of the anti-vac arguments are unfounded too. Vaccines have to go through rigorous clinical trials before they make it into widespread use. The fastest any working vaccine, deemed safe enough to use, has been developed, is five years.

Influenza A mutates easily. This is why we develop a new vaccine every season, with varying degrees of success. There is little we can do to prevent viruses mutating. Part of life I'm afraid.