Palestinian lives matter

[HeadNun]

On 12/11/2023 at 12:54, Sue said:

We were at the march. All we saw was peaceful and friendly.

Everyone, at least around us,  seemed to be there to call for an immediate  cease fire.

There were chants against Netanyahu, Sunak and Starmer, all unsurprising and all deserved, in my opinion.

 

Were there chants against Hamas too? Hezbollah, Iran? 

[alice]

The March was calling for a ceasefire in Gaza.  

[heartblock]

We joined the march at Vauxhall Bridge, saw lots of kids and families calling for peace and a seize-fire,  people wearing their kippah, keffiyehs, people with olive branches and obviously flags and placards. It felt safe, impassioned and meaningful.

[heartblock]

BIG respect to Helen Hayes... might be tempted to vote Labour after all... at least Nationally....

[Sue]

50 minutes ago, heartblock said:

BIG respect to Helen Hayes... might be tempted to vote Labour after all... at least Nationally....

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/nov/15/commons-gaza-vote-labour-defy-starmer-ceasefire-israel?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

Yep - I was just about to post the same. I had been intending to write to her.

[heartblock]

Although.. now I'm hearing she abstained!!! If this is true - disappointing and very weak and makes my voting decision very clear - Not Labour.

[Sue]

1 hour ago, heartblock said:

Although.. now I'm hearing she abstained!!! If this is true - disappointing and very weak and makes my voting decision very clear - Not Labour.

Yes, I've just read  that - screenshot attached.

I feel very let down by her.

I left the Labour Party after Starmer's treatment of Jeremy Corbyn, but I think Helen Hayes has always been an excellent constituency MP, although she was never a supporter of Corbyn.

I don't know how to vote now. I suppose Green. 

 

[heartblock]

Yep, Green for me, some excellent green cllrs in London. 

[Sue]

10 hours ago, heartblock said:

Yep, Green for me, some excellent green cllrs in London. 

I have voted for some green potential councillors in local elections, but how to vote in a national election is a different kettle of fish, as there are  more far-reaching consequences 😪

[HeadNun]

The vote was token. Even Stella Creasy said that no one in the Middle East gives a fig what the Labour Party thinks. It won't make the slightest bit of difference, so why does it matter? It's like the shadow cabinet of Lichtenstein voting against the Americans invading Afghanistan, in pursuit of Al Qaeda. 

[Beulah]

I think it does "matter", although I agree a vote in favour won't change much by itself.

Israel depends on Western support to do what it does and the UK is a very important part of that.

And currently it looks like Labour will form the next Government.

[HeadNun]

Israel absolutely does not depend on UK support. The only countries that matter are the US and Middle Eastern nations. It doesn't even care what the UN says. 

Were you all marching when we were arming the Saudis in the Yemen? When we pulled out of Afghanistan, when the recent war broke out in Sudan, when we stood by and let Assad massacre his own people? 

I keep asking myself why people seem to care more about Palestine-Israel than any other conflict and I keep coming back to the same reason: vain, virtue-signalling. It's such a populist subject and something that British 'liberals' love piling in on to somehow boost their own sense of importance. Soz. 

43 minutes ago, Beulah said:

I think it does "matter", although I agree a vote in favour won't change much by itself.

Israel depends on Western support to do what it does and the UK is a very important part of that.

And currently it looks like Labour will form the next Government.

And the fact that you said that Israel depends on Western support, in relation to a vote for a ceasefire, betrays what most of you think a ceasefire would entail: Israel downing weapons. Let's be honest here. What you're actually calling for is for Israel to let Hamas off the hook, walk away and forget about the massacre, including the pregnant woman who was disembowelled, forced to watch her foetus be killed and then herself murdered. 

That's what you're calling for. 

[Chick]

"And the fact that you said that Israel depends on Western support, in relation to a vote for a ceasefire, betrays what most of you think a ceasefire would entail: Israel downing weapons. Let's be honest here. What you're actually calling for is for Israel to let Hamas off the hook, walk away and forget about the massacre, including the pregnant woman who was disemboweled, forced to watch her foetus be killed and then herself murdered. "

What we are calling is stopping the mass murder of Gazans' so far it's 10,000 half of them children. 

The oppressions of Palestinians has been going on for 75 years and is worse than apartheid  South Africa, and that's hard to beat.

And the massacre continues,they are even invading hospitals. 

What's going on in Gaza is genocide nothing more.

"Were you all marching when we were arming the Saudis in the Yemen? When we pulled out of Afghanistan, when the recent war broke out in Sudan, when we stood by and let Assad massacre his own people?"

Do you think all the people who marched in 2003 supported Saddam Hussain?

 

[shoebox]

According to BBC,Hayes did NOT vote for ceasefire. When it comes to making any decision, she sits on the fence. LTNs, CPZs now Gaza. She has no shame and won’t be getting my vote any more.

Edited November 16, 2023 by shoebox

[Sephiroth]

There are things that are in the gift of UK government to deliver - A Ceasefire in Israel/Palestine is simply not one of them

And  if it's not in the gift of UK government, then it's DEFINITELY not true of UK opposition parties

So by all means transfer your vote on some arbitrary decision - but all you are doing is  helping the current govt retain power - events in middle-east will not be changed in any single way because of any UK internal vote - but schools and hospitals will continue to suffer

 

 

[malumbu]

It's a matter of principle, whether we make a difference or not. 

Of course it comes out as being selective (ie all the other travesties across the world) but we are dealing with a western style democracy who would notice if the UK, and perhaps other European nations changed their position, and this in turn would have influence over the US and some nations in the Gulf. 

But just because we can't easily influence Assad or the Taliban (are we going to march to get the UK to take unilateral military action) does it mean we don't care?  And some in the Labour party, who are likely to be the next party in power, have strong views about Yemen.

It's a sad fact of life that most of us are influenced by what is current news, Syria and Yemen will rarely make any news or political programmes anymore.  At a political level there are levers for change in Iran and in North Korea (that went backwards under Trump)  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-party_talks      /www.politico.com/story/2015/07/hillary-clinton-iran-nuclear-deal-120078

I don't know what pleasure you get out of mocking us.

[HeadNun]

1 hour ago, Chick said:

"And the fact that you said that Israel depends on Western support, in relation to a vote for a ceasefire, betrays what most of you think a ceasefire would entail: Israel downing weapons. Let's be honest here. What you're actually calling for is for Israel to let Hamas off the hook, walk away and forget about the massacre, including the pregnant woman who was disemboweled, forced to watch her foetus be killed and then herself murdered. "

What we are calling is stopping the mass murder of Gazans' so far it's 10,000 half of them children. 

The oppressions of Palestinians has been going on for 75 years and is worse than apartheid  South Africa, and that's hard to beat.

And the massacre continues,they are even invading hospitals. 

What's going on in Gaza is genocide nothing more.

"Were you all marching when we were arming the Saudis in the Yemen? When we pulled out of Afghanistan, when the recent war broke out in Sudan, when we stood by and let Assad massacre his own people?"

Do you think all the people who marched in 2003 supported Saddam Hussain?

 

Yes, Chick, I know my history and can read the news. I also know the true definition of genocide and this isn't it. And at no point have I said that it's right that thousands of Palestinians have lost their lives in Gaza. 

But I'd like to know if, by calling for a ceasefire, you mean just Israel laying down its arms. Or are you also campaigning for an end to Hamas? Because it seems to be getting off pretty lightly in this thread. Are you expecting Hamas to stop its ethnic cleansing, or is that justified because the Israelis have oppressed the Palestinians? 

Also, I'm very interested to know how you measure one type of apartheid against another and how you can possibly say, in all good faith, that what's happening in the Middle East is 'worse' than South Africa. That's some of the most ignorant, insulting, ill-informed, overly simplistic, frankly racist nonsense I think I've ever heard. 

You talked about whataboutery earlier on. What is your statement, if not that? It ignores all the nuance, all the complex history and frankly makes a mockery of the whole argument. 

[Sephiroth]

3 minutes ago, malumbu said:

It's a matter of principle, whether we make a difference or not. 

Of course it comes out as being selective (ie all the other travesties across the world) but we are dealing with a western style democracy who would notice if the UK, and perhaps other European nations changed their position, and this in turn would have influence over the US and some nations in the Gulf. 

But just because we can't easily influence Assad or the Taliban (are we going to march to get the UK to take unilateral military action) does it mean we don't care?  And some in the Labour party, who are likely to be the next party in power, have strong views about Yemen.

It's a sad fact of life that most of us are influenced by what is current news, Syria and Yemen will rarely make any news or political programmes anymore.  At a political level there are levers for change in Iran and in North Korea (that went backwards under Trump)  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-party_talks      /www.politico.com/story/2015/07/hillary-clinton-iran-nuclear-deal-120078

I don't know what pleasure you get out of mocking us.

where do you get that I'm mocking anyone, much less taking pleasure from it?

Nothing about any of this gives any pleasure - the long history, the oct 7th atrocities, the Israel retaliation, the endless lost lives, Palestinians being used as human shields by Hamas  - it is endlessly endlessly horrific in all it's facets

And calling for a ceasefire is understandable - but people saying they will not vote for their preferred party because of a meaningless vote is cuttings one's nose off to spite one's face. It makes no sense. And that isn't mockery or me taking pleasure. 

[HeadNun]

I think Mal is saying that I'm the one doing the mocking. 

I just think that picking a side with something like this is not only futile, but displays some level of privileged, Western grandiosity, I'm afraid. It's very easy to pick a 'right side of history' when it really doesn't directly affect you, and brush aside all the ugly, gnarly undercurrents that come with any subject like this. 

People die in war and genocide all the time, and have done for time immemorial. I just don't understand why white, middle class Londoners choose to identify with the Palestinian struggle over any other. 

[malumbu]

Thanks for this - if you checked the times I was typing at the same time as you S.

But what do you suggest Joe public and our politicians do HeadNun?  Would you say the protests against Apartheid were similarly futile?  If you'd gone to the march you will have seen that white middle class Londoners were in the minority.  I've no issue in exposing the middle class hypocrites - Rick from the young ones was a younger pastiche of this, but attending the march may have given you a different opinion.   

 

[HeadNun]

22 minutes ago, malumbu said:

Thanks for this - if you checked the times I was typing at the same time as you S.

But what do you suggest Joe public and our politicians do HeadNun?  Would you say the protests against Apartheid were similarly futile?  If you'd gone to the march you will have seen that white middle class Londoners were in the minority.  I've no issue in exposing the middle class hypocrites - Rick from the young ones was a younger pastiche of this, but attending the march may have given you a different opinion.   

 

Mal, I would never, ever go on a march like this. Not in a million years. Firstly, I don't want to be on a march where there is one single Hamas / Jihad sympathiser, or an ignorant, left wing student wearing a keffiyeh, who's just jumped on a righteous bandwagon. I don't want to go on a march, the very idea of which, might scare the living daylights of a Jewish child who suffers from generational trauma and doesn't understand why everyone suddenly hates them (I know there are Jews on these marches too). 

It is my opinion that many people go on marches to feel better about themselves and boost their own saviour complex. A lot of them are angry about other things and these marches just provide a channel for that anger. Maybe I'm wrong. I prefer to stay at home, dig out my history books and reflect on how these situations came to be.

I've seen the aftermath of ethnic cleansing, famine, abject poverty, disease, the fallout from violent inter-tribal clashes. One thing I've learnt is that there is nothing I can do about it, other than to be grateful. 

As for apartheid in SA, yes I would have marched against that. But it was a completely different situation. 

[Sephiroth]

"Thanks for this - if you checked the times I was typing at the same time as you S."

 

ah right - makes sense now. Cheers

"But what do you suggest Joe public and our politicians do HeadNun? "

There are some things that aren't FOR our UK politicians to do. But I support people supporting a ceasfire - I just don't understand the logic of going as far as not voting for an mp you normally would on something like this.  

[malumbu]

Just before I arrived at Hyde Park there was a side street with maybe 100 or 200 Jewish people with their banners waiting to join the march,  This probably had the biggest impact on me.  Why would they join a march where there may be a few, not many, supporting Hamas.  Back to my point about if people had been there they may have a different opinion. 

[heartblock]

If you can't march and protest against the killing and genocide of families and children... because you are frightened about 'virtue signalling' then ..... I'm at a loss about what you would be bothered to protest about. Now they are telling Palestinians to move to bunkers and shelters (that do not exist) so they can bomb the s**t out of South Gaza. 

4 hours ago, HeadNun said:

I prefer to stay at home, dig out my history books and reflect on how these situations came to be.

Probably about 6,000 dead children now... and more about to die ...but you know ... choices..choices...

[Sephiroth]

People considering voting green because “ugh ugh the smell of a meaningless vote” would do well to heed the words of Jess Phillips (hero!!! She resigned her position in rebellion against starmer! Legend) about the Green Party and their tactics today 

You people looking for purity - it don’t exist   Not here. Not anywhere 

 

take a deep breath - examine the situation, the possibilities, the personalities, the realities - and make informed choices 

 

knee jerking on a nothing vote is feckless