Palestinian lives matter

[Chick]

Mal, I honestly don't know. There's so much horror from both. 

[SpringTime]

I'm just not sold on Israel being caught out by a horrible Hamas spectacular here. They must've known, surely? What's now following looks to me to be genocide 100%. 

Edited October 19, 2023 by SpringTime

[malumbu]

I suppose one big question is what is the end game.  Something that was not known for Gulf War 2.  Invasion of Afghanistan hardly delivered long term prosperity and stability for the country and as for the Arab Spring.  But hey it's easy to knock.  But what is the answer?   Secular societies but we've gone the other way.

[first mate]

On 19/10/2023 at 18:53, SpringTime said:

I'm just not sold on Israel being caught out by a horrible Hamas spectacular here. They must've known, surely? What's now following looks to me to be genocide 100%. 

I think it is fair enough to ask what Netanyahu and elements of Israeli Intelligence services have to gain by the current situation- as with any leader who sees conflict/ war as an opportunity. There are reports Israeli Intelligence were aware a Hamas attack was being planned. However, and I know the use of the word Israel is shorthand, but we cannot say the general population were aware. That's the problem.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/20/benjamin-netanyahu-hamas-israel-prime-minister

Edited October 21, 2023 by first mate

[SpringTime]

37 minutes ago, first mate said:

I think it is fair enough to ask what Netanyahu and elements of Israeli Intelligence services have to gain by the current situation- as with any leader who sees conflict/ war as an opportunity. There are reports Israeli Intelligence were aware a Hamas attack was being planned. However, and I know the use of the word Israel is shorthand, but we cannot say the general population were aware. That's the problem.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/20/benjamin-netanyahu-hamas-israel-prime-minister

I've just this moment read this same article. Hopefully (for them, the Israelis) they'll soon realise they're being led into an inescapable trap. But I wonder if enough damage has been done already - their rightly or wrongly marauding neighbours won't quickly forget such a well-documented and explicitly covered blanket punishment with the hallmarks of holocaust. Hamas know, with their very young Palestinian population, that they've a new generation of fighters being perfectly nurtured with loss and hate inflicted by Israel, which will be increasingly poised to fight on with  added sympathy and aid from abroad. Israel must know this - so should Israel finish them absolutely all off? 

Hamas is grim and I'd love to see it rot, but I don't like Israel very much at the minute. Reminds me of the Taliban, but with nukes.

[first mate]

I think for clarity we should refer to the various vested interests on all sides in keeping the area unstable (Netanyahu, Hamas, Iranian leaders, Syrian leaders, just for starters). Civilians on all sides are caught up in and victims to the various agendas. The whole thing is made more scary by routine use of fake news accusations on all sides. I find it worrying to see young supporters of Palestine in the UK seeming to deny the recent horrors perpetrated by Hamas or revel in them. I also know there is a long history of denial of horrors inside Gaza at the hands of the Israeli regime and lack of scrutiny in the media. 

[SpringTime]

Yep 

[SpringTime]

I'm scared, too.

[Spartacus]

As always there are two sides to every story, and this conflict is starting to highlight horrors on both sides.

Today the BBC carried this story :BBC News - Palestinians under attack as Israeli settler violence surges in the West Bank
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67173344 

Count your blessings that we don't live in an area turn apart by conflict. 

[Jah Lush]

[malumbu]

Good to have discussion on this.  I wasn't at the Palestine march yesterday but it can be easy pickings for the right wing media - Extremists looking to recruit....   The debate on Sunday morning politics seems so much better under Victoria Derbyshire and three things to note this morning - Lisa Nancy not criticising Starmer for his LBC interview nor saying that the Israeli's could effectively be carrying out war crimes (to be fair she wasn't in a position to do this but looked a little like a rabbit in the headlights, an ex-Israeli PM effectively saying that the Palestinians in Gaza brought it on themselves, it was for the rest of the world to help them, that Israel will seal off the borders after they have destroyed Hamas and let the Palestinians sort out food, energy, water etc themselves, and this surreal bit where he said the BBC were effectively friends of Hamas which they are not and that extremists will come for the UK next, and a Palestinian ex PLO  I imagine  resisting a little in saying that Hamas carried out atrocities.

On the latter whatever you think you have to agree that Hamas were evil in what they did, targeting combatants is one thing but....  Any of those marching yesterday have to agree this or our government and the press will exploit this,

On end games I really don't know what Hamas's is, yes they want to inspire the next generation of 'freedom fighters' but bringing Iran into it really is World War 3 territory.

But that is my take, love to hear more from others.  This is the Lounge as it was a few years ago.

[Spartacus]

The UN issue is unfolding. UN chief Antonio Guterres appears to have criticised Israel this week and the response is quite interesting. 

I am not sure who is right and wrong in this situation but I do believe governments need to be open to scrutiny and critism. 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Spartacus

[HeadNun]

Worth a watch / listen

 

 

[IlonaM]

For those interested there is a third march this coming Saturday in central London:

https://palestinecampaign.org/events/national-march-for-palestine-ceasefire-now/

[Sue]

I was on the second march, with my partner and adult daughter.

On the way back, just near Trafalgar Square, sopping wet and looking for somewhere to eat,  I was shoved  hard with an open umbrella by a woman who shouted at  me and called me a cretin and a murderer 🙄

 

 

[redpost]

Before you go off to march this weekend, consider Yahya Sinwar the Hamas mastermind of Oct 7th

Whilst in Israeli prison for murdering 2 Israelis and 4 Palestinians, in 2008 his life was saved with an operation to remove a brain tumour.

He was freed in exchange for Gilad Shalit, and proceeded to murder a senior Hamas command for homosexuality.

Now consider that you are also supporting Iran.

Oct 7th was orchestrated by Iran, they supplied intelligence, training, advanced jamming equipment and weapons.

Their goal is to de-stabilise the region, they deeply resent further progress of the Abraham Accords which would see Saudi, the Gulf states and Israel establish a united front against theocratic Iran and their ally Russia.

This is a proxy battle for the democratic pluralistic west against the theocracy, hegemony and facism of Iran, China and Russia. 

 

[Spartacus]

Redpost, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, the marches aren't in support of Hamas but in support of innocent Palestinians who are caught up in the middle of the conflict between Israel and Hamas.

Unfortunately I fear that the attempt to wipe out Hamas by leveling large parts pf Palestine could backfire, create martyrs out of them and result in more Palestinians joining a Hamas type group. Let's hope not but there is a risk.

[malumbu]

I'm marching for peace tomorrow.  Whilst I was in loose support for those protesting about carnage in Palestine, and yes you can also say that people can (have, and hopefully will) protest against carnage in Israel, the one thing that motivated me is that hateful (to quote her own terminology) Home Secretary. 

[HeadNun]

What I don't understand is what are these marchers actually hoping for by marching? And how can innocent Palestinians be helped by it? 

Redpost is right - they're caught in the crossfire of a proxy war. That's why the US and UK has been so vocal in their support of Israel, so that Israel can do the dirty job of taking Hamas out, and we don't have to. Hopefully that way, the war stays regional and doesn't escalate. Everyone knows Israel won't succeed in destroying Hamas, but the message has to be sent.  This is Iran flexing her muscles and the west responding. 

Of course it's wrong - the whole thing is wrong. Terrorism is wrong, apartheid is wrong, illegal settlements in the West Bank are wrong, but it's naive to think that any nation would stand by and allow the brutality of October 7th to pass without retaliation. Israel will always argue that Gaza voted Hamas in (even tho the last election was in 2006) and that Gaza brought this on itself. 

This is geopolitics at its most complex and marching is just a performative, simplistic response to a deeply nuanced situation. It achieves only more unrest and division. 

 

11 minutes ago, malumbu said:

I'm marching for peace tomorrow.  Whilst I was in loose support for those protesting about carnage in Palestine, and yes you can also say that people can (have, and hopefully will) protest against carnage in Israel, the one thing that motivated me is that hateful (to quote her own terminology) Home Secretary. 

I just don't get this 'I'm marching for peace'. Peace from whom? Does anyone here really believe that Hamas is going to suddenly have a crisis of conscience, down its weapons and walk away from this conflict? Hamas engineered this - it knew Israel would invade and pulverise Gaza.

You might say that Israel should have taken the moral high-ground (and I believe there probably was a deal brokered by the Qataris to exchange the hostages before the retaliation begun, but Israel walked away from it) but in truth, neither Bibi not Hamas wants peace and neither is prepared to take the moral high-ground for the sake of the Palestinians. 

 

I just don't get this 'I'm marching for peace'. Peace from whom? Does anyone here really believe that Hamas is going to suddenly have a crisis of conscience, down its weapons and walk away from this conflict? Hamas engineered this - it knew Israel would invade and pulverise Gaza.

You might say that Israel should have taken the moral high-ground (and I believe there probably was a deal brokered by the Qataris to exchange the hostages before the retaliation begun, but Israel walked away from it) but in truth, neither Bibi nor Hamas wants peace and neither is prepared to take the moral high-ground for the sake of the Palestinians. 

Edited November 10, 2023 by HeadNun

[malumbu]

So does the average Palestinian want peace?  A serious question?  Are they all in full support of Hammas?  There are many of us who do not agree with our government's position,  You can say that all we are doing is following the Americans.  But the US has influence, so whilst they are on one hand giving Israel carte blanche on the other they are carrying out diplomatic work trying to come to solutions. We have bugger all influence so should be doing the right thing.

And as for the geopolitics in the region, what a mess the west made, in particular through American expansionism.  As Biden said - don't make the same mistake as we did - I think Brian from Family Guy explains this well 

 

[redpost]

No one knows if they want peace or Hamas in charge, because there have been no elections since 2006 when they purged the Gaza strip of Fatah (around 1000 executed)

The march is just to assuage western guilt over past colonial endeavours and the racist actions of some of their fellow citizens

Israelis and Jews are largely western (in politics, attitude and culture) so let's march against them - they're just like us, so fair game - nice easy target - every socialist/anarchist hates them. Much easier and less devisive amongst the left than than protesting against Pakistan forcibly deporting 1.7m Afghanis or Iran recently chairing a UN conference on human rights

Good 'ol dose of anti-semitism and conspiracy theories in there as well ... Israel planned it etc etc

 

[malumbu]

I couldn't disagree with you more.  I'll report back after I go to the march.

[alice]

The march will show internationally the strength of British feeling. However, Braverman’s recent statement has empowered right-wing groups. We see their disruptive violence at the Cenotaph. 
 

Mal I predict what you see on the March will just confirm your previously held opinions. 

[malumbu]

Hadn't been to a large march since Brexit and as I crossed Vauxhall Bridge on the way there I could feel a buzz.  Saw nothing untoward amongst the 1000s in my vicinity, just chants for peace and a ceasefire.  Seeing the Jewish groups who joined the group was particularly emotional.  Being with my bike I had a little cycle ride around Pimlico and saw small groups of counter-protestors at the Mucky Duck and Morpeth, pubs that were my work locals and outside of office drinks mainly  inhabited by those visiting Tate Britain.  Middle aged blokes with little hair and flat caps felt more like being at the New Den (and yes I have been to Millwall and recommend a visit to the Blue Anchor pub to see what parts of East Dulwich were like 30 years ago).  Pub is fine, its some of the symbolism there.

I decided not to start a chant about them drinking German style lager rather than English ale, but they were quiet and outnumbered by police so surprised it kicked off at the Duck/White Swan later.  Hoping it continues to be peaceful and to rub salts into the wounds of the Home Secretary.

[Sue]

We were at the march. All we saw was peaceful and friendly.

Everyone, at least around us,  seemed to be there to call for an immediate  cease fire.

There were chants against Netanyahu, Sunak and Starmer, all unsurprising and all deserved, in my opinion.

However there appeared to be  a real failure of communication on the part of the police.

Having joined the march at Park Lane, we eventually got to Vauxhall Bridge to find it had been closed off. There were a large number of police there, but none of them seemed to be doing anything, and nor were they advising people to turn back or directing them in any particular direction. In any case some of the side roads were closed off by police 

We heard variously (not from the police) that the bridge closure was due to too many people on the other side of the bridge  (what had they expected, FFS) and/or  due to anticipated problems with a large group of right wing thugs who were approaching on that side.

Anyway, whatever was the reason, nobody (police nor stewards) was telling people coming down Vauxhall Bridge Road towards the bridge that the bridge was closed. So there were still large crowds of people approaching quite fast,  with nowhere to go.

We thought that this situation could become quite dangerous, so we decided to call it a day and  just to head back towards Victoria. When we came to a group of police at the Victoria end of Vauxhall Bridge Road, I asked why nobody was telling people that the bridge was closed and directing them elsewhere to avoid a massive build up at the entrance to the bridge.

Unbelievably, they did not know that the bridge had been closed 😮  So they  then took steps to find out what was happening - at the other end of the road they were on 😮