Palestinian lives matter

[Spartacus]

From the BBC news today "The Isreali military has told Palestinians in northern Gaza to leave for their own safety and has now begun telling people in the southern city of Khan Younis, where many thousands of people who have fled northern Gaza are, that they must now also leave "

It opens up a question of what the end game looks like, once the IDF are satisfied Hamas is gone, will they return Gaza to the Palestinians and help them rebuild ? Or will a tranche of land be retained as a buffer between the two states ? 

What happens next will be key to future relations between the two States and the Arab world. 

Edited November 18, 2023 by Spartacus

[Sue]

On 16/11/2023 at 16:39, shoebox said:

According to BBC,Hayes did NOT vote for ceasefire. When it comes to making any decision, she sits on the fence. LTNs, CPZs now Gaza. She has no shame and won’t be getting my vote any more.

This was already discussed on the thread.

As to the comment re "virtue signalling" on a previous post - I'm speechless.

Virtue signalling to who?

I went on the march because I feel strongly about the issue.

I feel strongly about the people equating Hamas with innocent Palestinians who have nothing to do with Hamas. 

For me, that  calls to mind  the people who say that those who disagree with the government in Israel are anti Semitic.

I don't know much about some aspects of all this. But I feel strongly about thousands of people, including thousands of children,  being killed who have nothing to do with all this except that they have the misfortune to be currently living in Palestine.

I went on the march to stand up and be counted. There isn't anything else I can do about this terrible situation except to do that. To be part of a gathering of thousands of people calling for a cease fire. To be part of a gathering of thousands of people showing their feelings and views to our (mostly)  pathetic politicians.

My daughter and her husband came to the march  from Oxford. They were there because it was important to them to be there. They weren't "virtue signalling" either.

And of course there are many other terrible situations in the world, individual and collective. I can't do something about all of them. Each of us can only do what we can when we are moved to, and a lot of people were moved to show their feelings about the present plight of the people living in Palestine and to try, however faint the hope of being heard, to do something about it.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Sue

[Viciam]

On 16/11/2023 at 17:10, HeadNun said:

I think Mal is saying that I'm the one doing the mocking. 

I just think that picking a side with something like this is not only futile, but displays some level of privileged, Western grandiosity, I'm afraid. It's very easy to pick a 'right side of history' when it really doesn't directly affect you, and brush aside all the ugly, gnarly undercurrents that come with any subject like this. 

People die in war and genocide all the time, and have done for time immemorial. I just don't understand why white, middle class Londoners choose to identify with the Palestinian struggle over any other. 

Why? Because innocent children are being bombed and killed. Whether you like it or not, whats happening is wrong and majority of people around the world deep down know it. Hence the massive protests. You can say or think what you want but there are some fundamentals truths in life that can't be changed by man. Wrong is wrong and truth is truth. Its simple. The voice of the people is the voice of god.

"As for apartheid in SA, yes I would have marched against that. But it was a completely different situation" Completely different as in they were not muslims you mean?

[HeadNun]

2 minutes ago, Viciam said:

Why? Because innocent children are being bombed and killed. Whether you like it or not, whats happening is wrong and majority of people around the world deep down know it. Hence the massive protests. You can say or think what you want but there are some fundamentals truths in life that can't be changed by man. Wrong is wrong and truth is truth. Its simple. The voice of the people is the voice of god.

"As for apartheid in SA, yes I would have marched against that. But it was a completely different situation" Completely different as in they were not muslims you mean?

Nowhere have I said that what is happening in Palestine is right and nowhere have I denied what is happening.  You're missing my point. 

And no, not because they are Muslims. I studied Islam at uni (and Judaism), was raised in my early years in a Muslim country (very happily), have Muslim friends, so don't even try going there...

But one kind of apartheid is no worse than another and if you're inclined to compare and rate them against eachother, then you're the one who needs to have a think about whether race has anything to do with it. 

[Viciam]

On 16/11/2023 at 17:56, HeadNun said:

Mal, I would never, ever go on a march like this. Not in a million years. Firstly, I don't want to be on a march where there is one single Hamas / Jihad sympathiser, or an ignorant, left wing student wearing a keffiyeh, who's just jumped on a righteous bandwagon. I don't want to go on a march, the very idea of which, might scare the living daylights of a Jewish child who suffers from generational trauma and doesn't understand why everyone suddenly hates them (I know there are Jews on these marches too). 

It is my opinion that many people go on marches to feel better about themselves and boost their own saviour complex. A lot of them are angry about other things and these marches just provide a channel for that anger. Maybe I'm wrong. I prefer to stay at home, dig out my history books and reflect on how these situations came to be.

I've seen the aftermath of ethnic cleansing, famine, abject poverty, disease, the fallout from violent inter-tribal clashes. One thing I've learnt is that there is nothing I can do about it, other than to be grateful. 

As for apartheid in SA, yes I would have marched against that. But it was a completely different situation. 

"It is my opinion that many people go on marches to feel better about themselves and boost their own saviour complex. A lot of them are angry about other things and these marches just provide a channel for that anger. Maybe I'm wrong. I prefer to stay at home, dig out my history books and reflect on how these situations came to be. "

So you base your decisions and thoughts on books and things you've read (thats where you'll mostly find propadanda in the firtst place) rather than going out, meeting and talking to people and getting to know their side of the story so you can discover the truth. You've made up your mind and you're 100% convinved you're right by staying locked indoors and reading things online and in books.

The fact is, 13,000 people have been killed, more than half are children. And I also read one of your posts say, this is not genocide. Who are you kidding?

[HeadNun]

See above

[Viciam]

4 minutes ago, HeadNun said:

Nowhere have I said that what is happening in Palestine is right and nowhere have I denied what is happening.  You're missing my point. 

And no, not because they are Muslims. I studied Islam at uni (and Judaism), was raised in my early years in a Muslim country (very happily), have Muslim friends, so don't even try going there...

But one kind of apartheid is no worse than another and if you're inclined to compare and rate them against eachother, then you're the one who needs to have a think about whether race has anything to do with it. 

Please go out and open your mind by talking to people rather than staying locked in your house and letting the dark corners of your mind convince you otherwise. Kids got bombed and murdered. Its simple to understand. There's no ifs and buts in this situation and there is no justification.

On a basic fundamental human level...wrong was done for whatever reason. The reason doesn't matter. All that matters is that it was indeed done and is being done now.

Evil prevails because the good are silent. There's no neutral stance on this issue. You're either with the truth or the wrong. Oh and btw, staying neutral is siding with the wrong, just in case you're a politician and think you can play both sides.
 

[heartblock]

‘Throughout history, it has been the inaction of those who could have acted; the indifference of those who should have known better; the silence of the voice of justice when it mattered most; that has made it possible for evil to triumph’

[Sue]

I also want to say that I was horrified to find a detailed description of a particular atrocity in a post on this forum. 

I go out of my way to avoid seeing or hearing anything like this, for the sake of my mental health, because it stays in my mind for a very long time and causes me great distress.

I don't watch or listen to the news. I read it online where I can choose what to read without having something like this  suddenly thrust at me before I have the chance to turn it off 

What exactly did you think you were gaining by posting  that on here, HeadNun? 

[heartblock]

If one hears the apologists for the war on children in Gaza, they use this type of detailed description as an excuse or rationale for killing children, even descriptions that are not necessarily verified.

Poetry is more powerful than crass descriptions - not mine, I’m no poet..

“I wish children didn't die. I wish they would be temporarily elevated to the skies until the war ends. Then they would return home safe, and when their parents would ask them: "where were you?", they would say: "we were playing in the clouds"

Edited November 21, 2023 by heartblock

[HeadNun]

13 hours ago, Sue said:

I also want to say that I was horrified to find a detailed description of a particular atrocity in a post on this forum. 

I go out of my way to avoid seeing or hearing anything like this, for the sake of my mental health, because it stays in my mind for a very long time and causes me great distress.

I don't watch or listen to the news. I read it online where I can choose what to read without having something like this  suddenly thrust at me before I have the chance to turn it off 

What exactly did you think you were gaining by posting  that on here, HeadNun? 

Sue, I'm sorry if outlining some of Hamas' acts of barbarism upset you - what those men did is indeed traumatising to learn of. What I was trying to achieve by posting it was to underline the extent Hamas is willing to go to exterminate Jews (not to upset anyone). As I've previously said, Hamas has been glossed over in this thread, right from its inception a few years ago now. 

I would have thought that anyone aligning themselves with a cause and picking a side would have made sure they'd armed themselves with all the facts, even the most unpalatable ones. 

People here berate Starmer, Sunak, UK politicians who cannot make a blind bit of difference in this situation (only the Qataris and Americans can make a dent and when there is a ceasefire and hostage exchange, it will be thanks to those backchannels, not public outrage in the west).

What I'd like to see is people (of all denominations) marching against Hamas, the leader of which himself recently said that they need the blood of (Gazan) women, children and elderly to awaken their revolutionary spirit and revive the cause. 

As I think Spartacus pointed out here some time ago, Hamas is just recruiting more martyrs to its cause by inviting the Israeli invasion and you could argue that marching for peace possibly aids Hamas' bid for universal sympathy. 

Again, this is not to in any way undermine the bloodshed and tragedy in Gaza and, to a lesser extent, in the West Bank. I read, with a heavy heart every night, the diary of a palestinian stuck in Gaza, which is published in the Guardian. 

My original points were always about the true motivations of those who march and picking a side in a far from binary situation of right and wrong. 

 

[Angelina]

Headnun - it's hardly just Hamas though is it.

 

[Sue]

HeadNun, have you actually read what other people have posted on here?

Could you perhaps respond to their points one by one, instead of making generalisations and assumptions?

Eg what exactly do you mean by "the true motivations of those who march"?

I posted above about why I marched, and I find your wording "true motivations" extremely offensive.

[Chick]

In deed.

 

[HeadNun]

51 minutes ago, Sue said:

HeadNun, have you actually read what other people have posted on here?

Could you perhaps respond to their points one by one, instead of making generalisations and assumptions?

Eg what exactly do you mean by "the true motivations of those who march"?

I posted above about why I marched, and I find your wording "true motivations" extremely offensive.

Sue. I have read everything that everyone has posted, several times. Right from the beginning of the thread. Over two years ago. I have also responded to every single point directed at me (including the thinly veiled accusation of racism against Muslims). 

If you had read my posts properly, you would know what I mean by the 'true motivations' of people who march - I've outlined it very clearly and haven't minced my words. 

No need to get extremely offended, it's just a debate. But I'm done with it now, so I'll crawl back under my rock and let you all crack on, without raining on the parade. 

[Spartacus]

Headnun, the footage you refer to has been questioned and is possibly from a different event a few years ago in different country. (Subject to verification)  

During the great wars, negative media atrocity propaganda campaigns were employed by both sides,  One such story was that German soldiers were deliberately mutilating Belgian babies by cutting off their hands, in some versions even eating them. Eyewitness accounts told of having seen a similarly mutilated baby. (False)

Care should always be taken to verify something before posting it as factual.

 

[HeadNun]

32 minutes ago, Spartacus said:

Headnun, the footage you refer to has been questioned and is possibly from a different event a few years ago in different country. (Subject to verification)  

During the great wars, negative media atrocity propaganda campaigns were employed by both sides,  One such story was that German soldiers were deliberately mutilating Belgian babies by cutting off their hands, in some versions even eating them. Eyewitness accounts told of having seen a similarly mutilated baby. (False)

Care should always be taken to verify something before posting it as factual.

 

Hi Spartacus, it's not footage I'm referring to. It's the testimony of an Israeli morgue worker. She gave her account to the Daily Mail and other media outlets on October 20th. It's of course possible she was lying, but I'm sure that reputable journalists would have done their due diligence before filing, (but who knows!! I'm in no doubt that there's propaganda coming from both sides and I too try to fact-check what I can). 

But I'm also in no doubt about the barbaric levels of atrocity committed by Hamas, as Israel invited journalists from around the world to view UGC filmed by Hamas and the IDF, during the attacks. 

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by HeadNun
change words

[heartblock]

Aaah the Daily Mail... Aaah footage.. a morgue worker.....well that sounds like it simply must be an actual bona fide, truthful, factoid....

here are some more IDF factoids.....

The ‘calendar', a paper on a wall of a hospital that they said was a ‘list of terrorist names’ – Those who read Arabic recognised it as having the days of the week written on it.

They said they targeted a car with “terrorists” in Lebanon. It emerged that the vehicle had three little girls, their mother and grandmother. Only the mother survived the shelling.

They showed a video of a nurse in a hospital in Gaza saying Hamas is holding people as human shields. That video was debunked as fake and that the woman was a Mexican-Israeli actor.

And of course Shereen - RIP, murdered by Israel.

[Administrator]

The last few posts have been removed.

Please, no more comparisons or rankings of the Palestine situation vs historical atrocities. Its further provocation in an already contentious topic and not relevant to the debate.

 

 

[Chick]

Upwards of 35000 people killed. Not a sign of a ceasefire.

[Spartacus]

Whilst Israel has the right to defend itself, with the ICJ today issuing a dramatic ruling, ordering Israel to "immediately halt its military offensive in Rafah" and Israel signalling it would ignore any order to halt its operation,  are they in danger of losing all support for their plight and turning the world against them? 

It does feel like the suffering they went through over the centuries is just being applied to their rivals for land and you would have hoped they would have been more sympathetic to others plight.

Whilst the actions if Hamas were wrong, it doesn't justify what is going on to the people of Gaza at the moment. 

[HeadNun]

Neither side has clean hands and the same applies historically. That is why I cannot fathom people taking sides, especially people with no connection to, or knowledge of, the region. It's incredibly complicated and, I fear, impossible to resolve. 

[malumbu]

But we have taken a side.  Our government is effectively supporting Israel.  Recognising a Palestinian state would be a sign of a more balanced position.  

[IlonaM]

Today the PSC 'has launched an online parliamentary scorecard for you to easily check your local MP’s recent voting record on Palestine and the atrocities Israel continues to commit':

https://palestinecampaign.eaction.org.uk/votingrecord

 

[Chick]

37,347 Palestinians killed by the IDF so far.