Its a minefield...

[TheCat]

pk Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> TheCat Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > yes, I am obsessive about things I feel

> strongly

> > about.

>

> and based on your posting it seems you feel more

> strongly about the terms being used than about the

> underlying systemic issue being protested against

And by deleting the next sentence of my post which you quote, it seems you feel more strongly about willfully misinterpreting me, and just having a pop.

[pk]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> pk Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > TheCat Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > yes, I am obsessive about things I feel

> > strongly

> > > about.

> >

> > and based on your posting it seems you feel

> more

> > strongly about the terms being used than about

> the

> > underlying systemic issue being protested

> against

>

>

> And by deleting the next sentence of my post which

> you quote, it seems you feel more strongly about

> willfully misinterpreting me, and just having a

> pop.

if you think that you don't come across as obsessed with reeling off stuff about how black people use terminology that you don't like, most of which you proudly paraphrase off Spiked then you should probably review your posting history

you really think Spiked is the answer to racism in the UK?

[Blah Blah]

And there you make no sense Cat. You are trying to make this an issue of your free speech and your anecdotal opinion, while seeking to rewrite the free speech of black activism. I repeat again. It is not black activism that has the issue here. It is white people willfully failing to grasp the concept of a simple slogan. The only question there is why. Latent racism exists. Black people see it every day. You might do better to explore that.

[Blah Blah]

pk Wrote:

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> if you think that you don't come across as obsessed with reeling off stuff about how black people use terminology that you don't like, most of which you proudly paraphrase off Spiked then you should probably review your posting history

>

> you really think Spiked is the answer to racism in the UK?

Exactly this.

Maybe Cat would like to state in plain English, just why he thinks the slogan 'black lives matter' alienates some people?

[TheCat]

Geez you guys are getting desperate to 'score a point' arent you?.....harking back to a couple of links to articles in spiked - amongst reams of other posts I've made on this topic....hilarious.

No reference to the Guardian post - which was actually the most recent thing I've linked to? of course not..you cant arrogantly dismiss someone for linking to the Graun!!!!

Much easier to just try and shoot down someone saying things you don't like.

To be fair, blah blah, you probably warrant the benefit, as for the most part you are at least trying to argue a point (but there's post after post of 'plain english' on what I think - you might do better to explore that)....but pk's contributions are true to his/her long form...just trying to have a crack at people while all the while offering no thoughts of their own.

[pk]

TheCat Wrote:

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>

> Much easier to just try and shoot down someone

> saying things you don't like.

>

>

says the hypocrite who starts threads where he makes up things that people may or may not have said (but definitely haven't said on here) in order to criticise their choice of words

[Blah Blah]

No Cat, all you have done is post links to people who display the undertones of feeling some threat to their white identity because black people are fighting for equality again. That is their issue to deal with, not the problem of black people.

I know this is a left wing platform, but every point they make here is statistical fact. I know that you agree that these disparities exist, so I am genuinely baffled as to why you take such exception to the slogan 'black lives matter'.

https://bylinetimes.com/2020/06/08/black-lives-dont-matter-in-britain/

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

Because he has white privilege which he is insulted about because he doesn?t like the term or any terms Black people come up with and when asked by me to come up with another term, he couldn?t. Total white privilege abuse.

Blah Blah Wrote:

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> No Cat, all you have done is post links to people

> who display the undertones of feeling some threat

> to their white identity because black people are

> fighting for equality again. That is their issue

> to deal with, not the problem of black people.

>

> I know this is a left wing platform, but every

> point they make here is statistical fact. I know

> that you agree that these disparities exist, so I

> am genuinely baffled as to why you take such

> exception to the slogan 'black lives matter'.

>

> https://bylinetimes.com/2020/06/08/black-lives-don

> t-matter-in-britain/

[diable rouge]

Blah Blah Wrote:

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> so I am genuinely baffled as to why you take such

> exception to the slogan 'black lives matter'.

If you have to explain a slogan then it's not doing it's job, remember the grief the Gov got over 'stay alert' etc?

That of course is no excuse for others to counter with All Lives Matter and White Lives Matter...

[TheCat]

Blah Blah Wrote:

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> No Cat, all you have done is post links to people

> who display the undertones of feeling some threat

> to their white identity because black people are

> fighting for equality again.

Again, I think you're being very disingenuous Blah Blah...'All I have done is post links'....thats a patent untruth. I have posted a few links amongst a myriad of detailed comments...the lions share of which are my own thoughts and make no reference to said links....

Anyway, even if you don't like those links...you once again you ignore the link to the Guardian article...written by a prominent black journalist....basically saying the same thing I am (ytes, from a different perspective, but the conclusion is broadly the same). Shall we dismiss his views as well?

Also...posting links to stats verifying what we already agree-on seems a bit odd? You seem to really be struggling with the concept that I agree on the unequal playing field and the injustice...but think the slogans (not specifically BLM...but also things like #mutedbutlistening, white silence is violence, Understand you'll never understand) are not productive in moving the debate forward. You constantly are trying to convince me of what we already agree on!!

Finally...What DR said...I dont condone the vindictive use of ALM/WLM in anyway....but if the BLM slogan needs to be constantly explained, then its not doing its job.

[TheCat]

DulwichBorn&Bred Wrote:

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> Because he has white privilege which he is

> insulted about because he doesn?t like the term or

> any terms Black people come up with and when asked

> by me to come up with another term, he couldn?t.

> Total white privilege abuse.

>

If this is the type of dismissive response you have to people who 99% agree with you....I genuinely worry about how you stand a chance of interacting with people that dont.....

[Blah Blah]

I would argue that the slogan does its job perfectly well in the context of deaths in Police custody and the failure to hold anyone accountable afterwards. It could even be argued that it has resonance during a pandemic that disproportionately kills BAME people, many of them who were taking care of others in hospitals. No person should be taking offense at that slogan.

White privilege is a bit more complex granted, because it involves dynamics around class structures that can impact white people too, and we have discussed that here in part.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

The only time BLM needs explaining is to those of them like you refusing to accept their privilege. Everyone else I know fully understands BLM including my young child. I have only ever seen people who are in denial arguing against BLM. So it?s not the slogan that is the issue, it?s the people in denial.

TheCat Wrote:

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> Blah Blah Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > No Cat, all you have done is post links to

> people

> > who display the undertones of feeling some

> threat

> > to their white identity because black people

> are

> > fighting for equality again.

>

> Again, I think you're being very disingenuous Blah

> Blah...'All I have done is post links'....thats a

> patent untruth. I have posted a few links amongst

> a myriad of detailed comments...the lions share of

> which are my own thoughts and make no reference to

> said links....

>

> Anyway, even if you don't like those links...you

> once again you ignore the link to the Guardian

> article...written by a prominent black

> journalist....basically saying the same thing I am

> (ytes, from a different perspective, but the

> conclusion is broadly the same). Shall we dismiss

> his views as well?

>

> Also...posting links to stats verifying what we

> already agree-on seems a bit odd? You seem to

> really be struggling with the concept that I agree

> on the unequal playing field and the

> injustice...but think the slogans (not

> specifically BLM...but also things like

> #mutedbutlistening, white silence is violence,

> Understand you'll never understand) are not

> productive in moving the debate forward. You

> constantly are trying to convince me of what we

> already agree on!!

>

> Finally...What DR said...I dont condone the

> vindictive use of ALM/WLM in anyway....but if the

> BLM slogan needs to be constantly explained, then

> its not doing its job.

[Sephiroth]

my favourite bit about this thread is that someone who started it because although they agree with bulk of the message feel the manner in which it's conveyed puts some people off, has spent 8 pages yelling at people that they aren't getting HIS message

[KidKruger]

I actually saw a FB post the other day where someone had forwarded a post from Leave.EU, which asked the questions "why aren't people all out protesting about the stabbings in Reading ?". A direct reference to BLM being (I presume) unpatriotic / non 'keeping our own shop in order'.

Gobsmacked !

[pk]

KidKruger Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I actually saw a FB post the other day where

> someone had forwarded a post from Leave.EU, which

> asked the questions "why aren't people all out

> protesting about the stabbings in Reading ?". A

> direct reference to BLM being (I presume)

> unpatriotic / non 'keeping our own shop in

> order'.

> Gobsmacked !

but you still think that thecat's doing a good job here yes?

[uncleglen]

KidKruger Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I actually saw a FB post the other day where

> someone had forwarded a post from Leave.EU, which

> asked the questions "why aren't people all out

> protesting about the stabbings in Reading ?". A

> direct reference to BLM being (I presume)

> unpatriotic / non 'keeping our own shop in

> order'.

> Gobsmacked !

Not surprised- we have suffered terrorist attack after terrorist attack and the one before this last year at London Bridge (Usman Khan Fishmongers' Hall) was also someone let out to attend some ridiculous libtard effort to rehabilitate a fanatic. And this Reading Killer was known to MI5 as someone who might 'travel abroad for extremist reasons'.

The 'why aren't people all out protesting about the Reading stabbings' is probably a rhetorical question because all protesting in the street and causing mayhem does is distracts the cops from doing their REAL job and wastes the tax payers' money. And most people with intelligence realise this.

And as for keeping your own house in order- yes....please do

[JohnL]

KidKruger Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I actually saw a FB post the other day where

> someone had forwarded a post from Leave.EU, which

> asked the questions "why aren't people all out

> protesting about the stabbings in Reading ?". A

> direct reference to BLM being (I presume)

> unpatriotic / non 'keeping our own shop in

> order'.

> Gobsmacked !

some of the intolerant on twitter have noticed the victims were gay - and some little barbed comments and attempts to split happening :(

[TheCat]

DulwichBorn&Bred Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The only time BLM needs explaining is to those of

> them like you refusing to accept their privilege.

> Everyone else I know fully understands BLM

> including my young child. I have only ever seen

> people who are in denial arguing against BLM. So

> it?s not the slogan that is the issue, it?s the

> people in denial.

If only the world was populated with only people you know, then I'm sure we would live in a better place. Unfort it's not.

Sephiroth's comment above is actually annoyingly amusing...So fair play to him/her...but unfort the reason why I have had to spend 8 pages trying to make one simple point, is that people like you seemingly refuse to actually acknowledge what I've said...and keep coming back to claiming I have lack of understanding of why Black Lives Matter, and claiming my 'unacceptable opinions' are a result of refusing acknowledge my privilege. So I've spent a few posts attempting to argue my point and re-frame my position (or 'change my slogan' metaphorically speaking!), but it seems to little effect.

I personally have no problem with the black lives matter slogan..go and check my posts..I've never said I do..but that's how it's been painted by others (I do have a problem with some of the other language, which Ive referenced in my OP). But it's clear from a whole range of sources that many people do have a problem with it..and it's worthwhile exploring how can we try and address that.

I acknowledge and understand the argument that people like yourselves and Blah Blah are making....that this is the language that's been chosen by those most affected, and why should they change it? Perfectly acceptable point of view.

But many on here, like yourself, simply refuse to even try to understand what I'm saying around that. And just throw the same tired old tropes back at me, without addressing the specific things I've often said. Hence the 8 pages:)

For the final time...I acknowledge the concept of white privilege, I acknowledge that there is a societal problem with racial injustice....I simply think the best way to gain broader support is to change the language around the issue (while still maintaining the integrity of the central tenets of the Blm argument)...I'm not trying to 'silence' anyone. Sure, you may question why the 'oppressed' should have to change their message to appeal to the oppressors...but as I said right at the start...the solution to this societal problem involves everyone, oppressed and oppressors....So you can sit there and throw shade at the people 'in denial' all you like...but it's unlikely to progress you towards your goal in my view.

[TheCat]

pk Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> KidKruger Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I actually saw a FB post the other day where

> > someone had forwarded a post from Leave.EU,

> which

> > asked the questions "why aren't people all out

> > protesting about the stabbings in Reading ?". A

> > direct reference to BLM being (I presume)

> > unpatriotic / non 'keeping our own shop in

> > order'.

> > Gobsmacked !

>

> but you still think that thecat's doing a good job

> here yes?

Blimey..even when I'm not even commenting on the thread, you are trying to find ways to slag me off?!? It's getting a bit desperate and pathetic. Let it go pk....let it go...

[pk]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> pk Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > KidKruger Wrote:

> >

> ---------------------------------------------

> > but you still think that thecat's doing a good

> job

> > here yes?

>

> Blimey..even when I'm not even commenting on the

> thread, you are trying to find ways to slag me

> off?!? It's getting a bit desperate and pathetic.

> Let it go pk....let it go...

Apologies i thought that when you commented on this thread (just up the page) you were commenting on this thread

Like when you commented on this thread to support the cat bringing up this inevitably provocative thread

I actually wondered whether you might have changed your view

[KidKruger]

pk, they are separate things, on e is not dependent on the other.

the FB post has ill-intent, whereas I believe TheCat does not have ill-intent.

unrelated. different. get it ?

pk Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> KidKruger Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I actually saw a FB post the other day where

> > someone had forwarded a post from Leave.EU,

> which

> > asked the questions "why aren't people all out

> > protesting about the stabbings in Reading ?". A

> > direct reference to BLM being (I presume)

> > unpatriotic / non 'keeping our own shop in

> > order'.

> > Gobsmacked !

>

> but you still think that thecat's doing a good job

> here yes?

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

A really good watch and educational: The school that tried to end racism. https://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-school-that-tried-to-end-racism

[uncleglen]

Oh well. That's nearly the whole of Pride month hijacked then! Just saying- a small march will happen today

[Blah Blah]

DulwichBorn&Bred Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> A really good watch and educational: The school

> that tried to end racism.

> https://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-school-tha

> t-tried-to-end-racism

I thought this programme was thought provoking (in a good way). What I found most interesting is how the already established differing levels of confidence affected the thought process of the kids. But I also came away with hope. Children are far smarter than we sometimes give them credit for, and at that age, they have a simple approach to life that says everything must make logical sense. That is a key impetus of learning at that age anyway. I really liked the way the programme sought to empower everyone around their culture and identity. The key to ending racism is exactly that - finding value in our own culture and identity, as much as others. Tackling inequality in turn, is then something everyone can work together on.