Its a minefield...

[TheCat]

Ronnijade Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Sounds about white...

I see what you did there. Do you actually have something insightful to add (on anything that I or anyone else has actually said)? or do you just want to continue sniping from the sidelines because you cant seem to grasp the subtleies of the discussion?

Without purposfully trying to twist words, take comments out of context or deliberatley misinterpret....can you please point me to the sections of this thread which you find so abhorrent, leading you to twice call for it to be shut down?

[pk]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> pk Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > TheCat Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > I should listen to people discussing those

> > experiences

> >

> > and yet you don't, you criticise unidentified

> > people for saying things that you don't

> understand

>

>

> Listening is not the same thing as blindly

> endorsing everything that someone says. One can

> listen and then ask questions. It's how we learn

> PK.

so what has the man who thinks he doesnt need more education on racism learnt?

>

> But the evidence keeps mounting that you take a

> different view.

what evidence are you talking about? you ignoring questions asked of you?

> Can you quote me one of those clever people again please....?

how about:

?Privilege is when you can afford to sit back and criticize others who have to fight for the things you take for granted.?

[pk]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> Without purposfully trying to twist words, take

> comments out of context or deliberatley

> misinterpret....

what a hypocrite

[ED Bird]

For a predominantly leftist forum that loves to throw the word "racist" around, I am disappointed that not a single one of you is willing to engage in a discussion with the intention of finding a solution. Congratulations. You are all apart of the problem.

Don't bother fixing it. Get back to your hype over white journalists nobody cares about, media & BBC.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

Sharing this incredible organisation, The Black Curriculum.

A section of their website is below:

"Currently, the national curriculum and exam board specifications are limited in providing Black British history. Furthermore, Black history is not mandatory in schools which follow their own curriculum. Without the resources, time and understanding, we are still going to face the same problems of historical inaccuracies, bias and a lack of enthusiasm in teaching and delivery. In the same manner, we can not simply rely on parents and carers to provide this material to young people.

Black British history is not merely a theme for October, but started hundreds of years before Windrush and pre-dates European colonial enslavement. Our work aims to address and overcome these limitations by seeking to provide a contextual, globalised history that roots the Black British experience in histories of movement and migration - 365 days a year.

We want to help prepare students to become fully rounded citizens and ready for an increasingly globalised world. Our curriculum is grounded in the arts for young people to engage with history imaginatively, encouraging student satisfaction and critical thinking skills. Through our holistic approach we aim to remedy a wider systemic issue."

Changing the school curriculum would make a difference in the fight against systemic racism. All children need to learn about a diverse range of voices, histories and perspectives in school.

If you could spare 2 minutes, please send an e-mail to Gavin Williamson - The Black Curriculum have written a fantastic template.

Thank you!

https://www.theblackcurriculum.com/action

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/05/britain-colonial-history-curriculum-racism-migration?CMP=fb_gu&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1591252926

[Blah Blah]

The problem is Cat, that you have alluded to open discussion being suppressed from white people, but haven't given a single example and I would still like you to list just who has been stopped from airing views on social media. Because as far as I can see, those who have been banned from SM are extremists who peddle nonsense like 'The Great Replacement' and other racist conspiracy rubbish. You are very good at skirting around what you would really like to say. So let's cut to the chase eh? ;)

[TheCat]

pk Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> TheCat Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > pk Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > TheCat Wrote:

> > >

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> >

> > > -----

> > > > I should listen to people discussing those

> > > experiences

> > >

> > > and yet you don't, you criticise unidentified

> > > people for saying things that you don't

> > understand

> >

> >

> > Listening is not the same thing as blindly

> > endorsing everything that someone says. One can

> > listen and then ask questions. It's how we

> learn

> > PK.

>

> so what has the man who thinks he doesnt need more

> education on racism learnt?

>

> >

> > But the evidence keeps mounting that you take a

> > different view.

>

> what evidence are you talking about? you ignoring

> questions asked of you?

>

>

> > Can you quote me one of those clever people

> again please....?

>

> how about:

>

> ?Privilege is when you can afford to sit back and

> criticize others who have to fight for the things

> you take for granted.?

okay. pk, im done with you my friend. you may dislike my posts, and have a mission to just shoot me down, rather than actually engage. that's fine. But the fact is you still cant say ANYTHING constructive. you snipe and snipe, but never actually say anything of value. love me or hate me (or not really give a sh!t about me)....one thing i can never be accused of is not putting a view out there; allowing it to be torn down by the likes of you...someone who cant formulate an arguement (and expose it to criticism) to save themselves.

also. its obvious the last quote is you. its the most simple thing i've read on this thread.

[TheCat]

DulwichBorn&Bred Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Sharing this incredible organisation, The Black

> Curriculum.

> A section of their website is below:

> "Currently, the national curriculum and exam board

> specifications are limited in providing Black

> British history. Furthermore, Black history is not

> mandatory in schools which follow their own

> curriculum. Without the resources, time and

> understanding, we are still going to face the same

> problems of historical inaccuracies, bias and a

> lack of enthusiasm in teaching and delivery. In

> the same manner, we can not simply rely on parents

> and carers to provide this material to young

> people.

> Black British history is not merely a theme for

> October, but started hundreds of years before

> Windrush and pre-dates European colonial

> enslavement. Our work aims to address and overcome

> these limitations by seeking to provide a

> contextual, globalised history that roots the

> Black British experience in histories of movement

> and migration - 365 days a year.

> We want to help prepare students to become fully

> rounded citizens and ready for an increasingly

> globalised world. Our curriculum is grounded in

> the arts for young people to engage with history

> imaginatively, encouraging student satisfaction

> and critical thinking skills. Through our holistic

> approach we aim to remedy a wider systemic

> issue."

> Changing the school curriculum would make a

> difference in the fight against systemic racism.

> All children need to learn about a diverse range

> of voices, histories and perspectives in school.

> If you could spare 2 minutes, please send an

> e-mail to Gavin Williamson - The Black Curriculum

> have written a fantastic template.

> Thank you!

> https://www.theblackcurriculum.com/action

im all for this. why wouldnt we want more diverse education? sounds great. I dont agree with every sentence of the pre-drafted email to gavin, but believe it or not, I sent one (with some slightly altered language, but the message is the same).

im glad you didnt stay away and offended Dulwich B&B:)....this is interesting.

[TheCat]

Blah Blah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The problem is Cat, that you have alluded to open

> discussion being suppressed from white people, but

> haven't given a single example and I would still

> like you to list just who has been stopped from

> airing views on social media. Because as far as I

> can see, those who have been banned from SM are

> extremists who peddle nonsense like 'The Great

> Replacement' and other racist conspiracy rubbish.

> You are very good at skirting around what you

> would really like to say. So let's cut to the

> chase eh? ;)

very fair comment Blah Blah.

Look, I'm not talking about anyone (that I know) being actually silenced, and resrticted from speaking in a literal sense. Im talking about the dominant culural narrative (in the world i live in at least). I made very clear in the OP that I was talking about the 'uber-progressive' language associated with this issue. so im talking generically about the arguments I hear. The post was actually motivated (as ive said earlier in the thread) by seeing smart people prostrating themselves on social media on tuesday (#blackoutuesday) and suggest they had nothing of value to add to the discourse. Wouldnt it be better if well meaning people gave their opinions? (within the context of listening to the victims of course). Why do these well meaning people we all know on social media feel that they are not allowed to comment? In all honesty thats my point. So to answer your question, I beleive the discussion is being supressed by social pressure...not by acutal legislation or regulation. Very simialr to the rascim issue itself, all our lawas say everyone is equal and discrimination is bad, but it still happens. Im just raising a small point within that system. Of course my concerns shouldnt supercede any victims of racism concerns. But its amazing how many people (on this thread) extrapolate that's what I think, becuase thats what their prejudices beleive that I 'really mean' when they hear me questioning anything around this issue.

[Blah Blah]

But you are still being nuanced. Social pressure exists in many forms. Some people cave in to it, others don't. So that is very much an individual matter, linked often to issues around self esteem. As for social media, most people just don't see the point in wasting time arguing with armchair bullies. There are better ways to spend ones time and campaign for change.

It would help I think if you gave an actual example of 'uber progressive' language, and how that leaves someone feeling they can not air their view. Otherwise all of this is a bit vague to be honest. The discussion needs detail and examples.

[TheCat]

I concede that 'spiked' is antagonistic....But look past the fruity phrases. There are real examples that would make people be silent...

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/06/03/i-did-not-kill-george-floyd/

[Blah Blah]

Nope, that article is the view of the writer. And he twists the intent and meaning of other people's words with it, which is why he aligns a factually correct statement from Nigella Lawson, with white shaming. Worse than that, the writer seems to not understand why there is offence caused in 'latent' (or casual) racism. I could address every nonsensical point made by him. He just comes across as yet another white male struggling with the concept of ethnicity and power.

And just to add, that the killing of George is not just about him and four white police officers. It is every black person that has been killed or beaten by over zealous white police officers who were never held accountable. Racists won't listen to black people who tell them they are being racist. Therefore it is up to people they will listen to, to tell them that. When James Cordon says ?This is our problem to solve?, this is why he is saying it.

[TheCat]

I was hope my preamble would help you look past his bluster (I'm not advocating the whole article) to the specific couple of examples he cites.

But perhaps not.

It's hard arguing online:)

[Blah Blah]

It's a long article. How am I supposed to know which parts you are referring to? What you agree with and what you reject?

There is a long list of black people dying at the hands of Police. Every time it happens, change is demanded, accountability is demanded, and nothing changes. When cases are brought, the officers are always acquitted. Will that be different this time? Why would anyone think it will be? And when all that is done, whose fault is it? The Police Force, the Law, the government, or the education, parenting and culture of the person who snuffed out yet another life in their custody? Go to any football terrace (well not at the moment obviously) and you will hear racist chants. It IS systematic, but it is also deeply ingrained in sizeable parts of our culture, and we ARE collectively responsible for doing something about that.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

You are ace! 🖤❤️

Blah Blah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Nope, that article is the view of the writer. And

> he twists the intent and meaning of other people's

> words with it, which is why he aligns a factually

> correct statement from Nigella Lawson, with white

> shaming. Worse than that, the writer seems to not

> understand why there is offence caused in 'latent'

> (or casual) racism. I could address every

> nonsensical point made by him. He just comes

> across as yet another white male struggling with

> the concept of ethnicity and power.

>

> And just to add, that the killing of George is not

> just about him and four white police officers. It

> is every black person that has been killed or

> beaten by over zealous white police officers who

> were never held accountable. Racists won't listen

> to black people who tell them they are being

> racist. Therefore it is up to people they will

> listen to, to tell them that. When James Cordon

> says ?This is our problem to solve?, this is why

> he is saying it.

[TheCat]

Blah Blah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It's a long article. How am I supposed to know

> which parts you are referring to? What you agree

> with and what you reject?

>

> There is a long list of black people dying at the

> hands of Police. Every time it happens, change is

> demanded, accountability is demanded, and nothing

> changes. When cases are brought, the officers are

> always acquitted. Will that be different this

> time? Why would anyone think it will be? And when

> all that is done, whose fault is it? The Police

> Force, the Law, the government, or the education,

> parenting and culture of the person who snuffed

> out yet another life in their custody? Go to any

> football terrace (well not at the moment

> obviously) and you will hear racist chants. It IS

> systematic, but it is also deeply ingrained in

> sizeable parts of our culture, and we ARE

> collectively responsible for doing something about

> that.

I guess naturally this whol conversation goes to the injustice. I don't deny the injustice. But questioning a little, means you get labelled with the lot. It's a tough subject, I knew I was in for it when I posted.....But sometimes it's worth it to see what others think.....

[TheCat]

Blah Blah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It's a long article. How am I supposed to know

> which parts you are referring to? What you agree

> with and what you reject?

>

> There is a long list of black people dying at the

> hands of Police. Every time it happens, change is

> demanded, accountability is demanded, and nothing

> changes. When cases are brought, the officers are

> always acquitted. Will that be different this

> time? Why would anyone think it will be? And when

> all that is done, whose fault is it? The Police

> Force, the Law, the government, or the education,

> parenting and culture of the person who snuffed

> out yet another life in their custody? Go to any

> football terrace (well not at the moment

> obviously) and you will hear racist chants. It IS

> systematic, but it is also deeply ingrained in

> sizeable parts of our culture, and we ARE

> collectively responsible for doing something about

> that.

Also....you know what....my entire argument is calling for a different approach. Maybe the current approach is not working????

[malumbu]

Here's a nice song we can all join in with

And something a bit more provocative

Bit cheesy but both relevant

[ED Bird]

... Hence why I quoted Martin Luther King, Malcholm X, Thomas Sowell {& the list can continue if you like}.

Be part of the solution, not the problem.

If you're not willing to listen, then you're not willing to learn.

This thread should be left for people like DulwichBorn&Bred & Blah Blah. Some of the rest of you are just pointless.

[ED Bird]

Relevant to what, exactly? This forum's wishful, simplistic blindness to reality, especially in the political sphere?

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

And another petition if you please. Good way to get the kids in school to discuss, they would all be able to contribute to the discussion as part of their ongoing education.

https://www.change.org/p/department-of-education-battle-racism-by-updating-reading-lists-at-gcse?recruiter=false&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&utm_term=psf_combo_share_initial&recruited_by_id=5fb981b0-a460-11ea-bf6f-b53bdaea1b41

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Blah Blah Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > The problem is Cat, that you have alluded to

> open

> > discussion being suppressed from white people,

> but

> > haven't given a single example and I would

> still

> > like you to list just who has been stopped from

> > airing views on social media. Because as far as

> I

> > can see, those who have been banned from SM are

> > extremists who peddle nonsense like 'The Great

> > Replacement' and other racist conspiracy

> rubbish.

> > You are very good at skirting around what you

> > would really like to say. So let's cut to the

> > chase eh? ;)

>

>

> very fair comment Blah Blah.

>

> Look, I'm not talking about anyone (that I know)

> being actually silenced, and resrticted from

> speaking in a literal sense. Im talking about the

> dominant culural narrative (in the world i live in

> at least). I made very clear in the OP that I was

> talking about the 'uber-progressive' language

> associated with this issue. so im talking

> generically about the arguments I hear. The post

> was actually motivated (as ive said earlier in the

> thread) by seeing smart people prostrating

> themselves on social media on tuesday

> (#blackoutuesday) and suggest they had nothing of

> value to add to the discourse. Wouldnt it be

> better if well meaning people gave their opinions?

> (within the context of listening to the victims of

> course). Why do these well meaning people we all

> know on social media feel that they are not

> allowed to comment? In all honesty thats my point.

> So to answer your question, I beleive the

> discussion is being supressed by social

> pressure...not by acutal legislation or

> regulation. Very simialr to the rascim issue

> itself, all our lawas say everyone is equal and

> discrimination is bad, but it still happens. Im

> just raising a small point within that system. Of

> course my concerns shouldnt supercede any victims

> of racism concerns. But its amazing how many

> people (on this thread) extrapolate that's what I

> think, becuase thats what their prejudices beleive

> that I 'really mean' when they hear me questioning

> anything around this issue.

[JohnL]

ED Bird Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ... Hence why I quoted Martin Luther King,

> Malcholm X, Thomas Sowell {& the list can continue

> if you like}.

>

> Be part of the solution, not the problem.

> If you're not willing to listen, then you're not

> willing to learn.

>

> This thread should be left for people like

> DulwichBorn&Bred & Blah Blah. Some of the rest of

> you are just pointless.

Hmmm

Not a good look at all - It's a free country it's a free forum (subject to the administrator).

Edit: Mind I haven't heard about "the clique" in a while.

[TE44]

If you are only willing to listen when you agree with whats being said it doesn't leave room for solutions, you are often left with a divide where one side believes they are entitled to shut the other down, even when both agree on the injustice.

There is no doubt white people cannot understand the same injustices black people face, that does not mean we cannot relate. People are individuals regardless of which group they belong to and amidst the fight that comes against injustices we stand together and seperately. That concept of coming together must move and allow people to speak. I honestly cannot see anything the cat has said that would warrant wishing he'd leave. Priviledge is a huge and complex issue, used in the context of white priviledge can be simple enough but outside of the group, individually it can be a complex matter.

[TE44]

Injustices, deaths in custody, documentary was refused air time. It was shown on channel 4 building after mayday shenaigans early 2000. Heres a link, sorry on phone so have to go back to copy documentary which I will edit to add

https://www.pressgazette.co.uk/c4-cowards-wont-show-death-in-custody-film/

Documentary