Its a minefield...

[TheCat]

pk Wrote:

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> TheCat Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I just don't get it.

> >

> for once we agree

feel free to actually add something construcive to the discussion pk. I know thinking for yourself can be really difficult. But im 10% sure you can do it.

[TheCat]

Blah Blah Wrote:

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> TheCat Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > It seems you have a different definition of

> > privilege than Janaya Khan (co founder of black

> > lives matter), who says that?"Privilege isn't

> > about what you've gone through; it's about what

> > you haven't had to go through."

>

> I am mystified as to how you can conclude that by

> anything I wrote. Read my post again. It was a

> valid point on the historical development of

> entrenched privilege and why it is so hard to

> compete with. If however you want to debate a

> quote by Janaya Khan instead, that is fine (I

> agree with her point too btw). Just don't conflate

> that with anything I have not actually said ;)

>

> > So, surely by everyone being involved in the

> > dialogue (rather than white people being

> > #MUTEDBUTLISTENING...or #SILENCED depending on

> > your viewpoint) means minorities can be

> elevated

> > so that no one has to 'go through' it...so no

> one

> > loses their privilege, just some people gain

> > it.....

>

> But that ignores the central point I made about

> self preserving entrenchment of class based

> privilege. That exists. Those who have most never

> want to give any of it up. If they did, there

> would be no Monarchy, no public schools, no

> institution of any sort that rewards people by the

> luck of who they are born to. Yes we can have

> detailed debates about that, but none of that

> changes the inequalities caused by that

> entrenchment of privilege.

>

> There was a documentary a little while ago that

> looked at the struggles of Black graduates

> entering into certain professions, like law, the

> city etc. All the data shows that black students

> can go to the same colleges as their white middle/

> upper class counterparts, do better in their final

> results, but fail to be as successful as those

> counterparts in being recruited to top city firms

> etc. THAT is an example of white privilege self

> preserving. It seeks to preserve its own class

> culture. This is precisely why BAME/ working

> class/ Women etc struggle to climb ladders and

> break glass ceilings. And when they do, it because

> they can play the game, become like those whose

> club they are allowed into. It rarely changes the

> other way round.

okay fair enough...we're sort of talking to slightly different points to be fair. But they do compliment eachother I think....You're suggesting that people with privelige want to protect it. I would say that (unless its a bloody revolution), then the only way to coax them down off the mountain is by involving them in the conversation - people shouting from the bottom of the mountain about how the people at the top must behave without their buy-in is unlikely to be successful I would guess...

[SpringTime]

Do all white people have white privilege? I'd say in the UK the majority of white people have barely any priviege at all for their colour. Happy to be corrected.

[ED Bird]

KidKruger Wrote:

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> Cat, people love to jump on this one.

> Weirdly, in a way they wouldn't to your face.

> Well done bringing it up, there is a sense of

> "who's entitled to talk about what" on this

> subject.

Exactly.

TheCat, If you are willing to understand & if need be enlightened, you are on the right path.

The same cannot be said for the negative messages of unwillingness to solve the problem.

I'll just place these right here. Maybe these people can educate themselves, because Martin Luther King & Malcholm X clashed in their solution, but they both agreed on one thing; that the left could not be trusted.

Thomas Sowell:

Let that sink in.

Alveda King {MLK's niece}, Candace Owens https://www.instagram.com/realcandaceowens/.... two black women who voted for Trump.

You have to question why that is.

Now if anybody actually wants to help;

https://blacklivesmatters.carrd.co/

Your Kids Aren't Too Young to Talk About Race: Resource Roundup:

https://www.prettygooddesign.org/blog/Blog%20Post%20Title%20One-5new4?fbclid=IwAR1ET6ejIfiVxG9Y8urZOv1qEcXWIPEJQJoFGAFmNMJb_DNnDPN6V5TJkoo

There is a peaceful protest tomorrow 4th June which anyone can participate in from the safety

& comfort of their homes. There's no excuse.

https://www.facebook.com/events/935909903525530/

Heather {The Wingless Bird}

[pk]

TheCat Wrote:

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> pk Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > TheCat Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > I just don't get it.

> > >

> > for once we agree

>

> feel free to actually add something construcive to

> the discussion pk. I know thinking for yourself

> can be really difficult. But im 10% sure you can

> do it.

you've rolled out this type of provocative/ignorant/arrogant/naive/childish rubbish before about race and about gender so i don't believe that someone who thinks that they don't need any education on issues of discrimination really wants to engage in constructive discussion

someone cleverer than you once said something along the lines of: "if you have a critique of our resistance, you better have a record of critiquing our oppression" but for you it seems that you'd rather call of black people and women for not appreciating your 'good' (but ill informed) intentions as a white man

[TheCat]

pk Wrote:

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> TheCat Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > pk Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > TheCat Wrote:

> > >

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> >

> > > -----

> > > > I just don't get it.

> > > >

> > > for once we agree

> >

> > feel free to actually add something construcive

> to

> > the discussion pk. I know thinking for yourself

> > can be really difficult. But im 10% sure you

> can

> > do it.

>

> you've rolled out this type of

> provocative/ignorant/arrogant/naive/childish

> rubbish before about race and about gender so i

> don't believe that someone who thinks that they

> don't need any education on issues of

> discrimination really wants to engage in

> constructive discussion

>

> someone cleverer than you once said something

> along the lines of: "if you have a critique of our

> resistance, you better have a record of critiquing

> our oppression" but for you it seems that you'd

> rather call of black people and women for not

> appreciating your 'good' (but ill informed)

> intentions as a white man

All you've just said there that I've said things that you don't agree with. So if someone says something that doesn't align with your worldview, they must just be being provocative/ignorant/arrogant/naive/childish?

My views disagree with your own, so you won't 'engage' and try and change my mind.....you'll just dismiss me becuase of my race and gender...there's a name for people that do that....

But in seriousness, I don't think you're really a bigot, but I think we all know it's actually becuase if it's not written in the Guardian, or cant be parroted from people who are 'cleverer than me', then you've got a absolutley nothing of value to say..

[pk]

TheCat Wrote:

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> pk Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > TheCat Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > pk Wrote:

> > >

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> >

> > > -----

> > > > TheCat Wrote:

> > > >

> > >

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> >

> > >

> > > > -----

> > > > > I just don't get it.

> > > > >

> > > > for once we agree

> > >

> > > feel free to actually add something

> construcive

> > to

> > > the discussion pk. I know thinking for

> yourself

> > > can be really difficult. But im 10% sure you

> > can

> > > do it.

> >

> > you've rolled out this type of

> > provocative/ignorant/arrogant/naive/childish

> > rubbish before about race and about gender so i

> > don't believe that someone who thinks that they

> > don't need any education on issues of

> > discrimination really wants to engage in

> > constructive discussion

> >

> > someone cleverer than you once said something

> > along the lines of: "if you have a critique of

> our

> > resistance, you better have a record of

> critiquing

> > our oppression" but for you it seems that you'd

> > rather call of black people and women for not

> > appreciating your 'good' (but ill informed)

> > intentions as a white man

>

> All you've just said there that I've said things

> that you don't agree with, and becuase I'm a

> 'white man', I must just being

> provocative/ignorant/arrogant/naive/childish.

>

no it's not

> My views disagree with your own, so you won't

> 'engage' and try and change my mind.....you'll

> just dismiss me becuase of my race and

> gender...there's a name for people that do

> that....

it's not to do with your race or gender

>

> But in seriousness, I don't think you're really a

> bigot, but I think we all know it's actually

> becuase if it's not written in the Guardian, or

> cant be parroted from people who are 'cleverer

> than me', then you've got a absolutley nothing of

> value to say..

so, so pathetic

[TheCat]

pk Wrote:

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> >

>

> no it's not

>

>

> it's not to do with your race or gender

> >

>

>

> so, so pathetic

Chuckles. What a brilliantly insightful set of responses. Thank you so much pk for unambiguously proving my point.

Gotta run now, but look forward to next time when you make me reconsider my whole world view by calling me 'pathetic'....hahahaha

[pk]

TheCat Wrote:

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> pk Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > >

> >

> > no it's not

> >

>

> >

> > it's not to do with your race or gender

> > >

> >

> >

> > so, so pathetic

>

>

> Chuckles. What a brilliantly insightful set of

> responses. Thank you so much pk for unambiguously

> proving my point.

>

> Gotta run now, but look forward to next time when

> you make me reconsider my whole world view by

> calling me 'pathetic'....hahahaha

so so so pathetic

[Chick]

I love a good squabble. Much better than the usual whingeing on here.

[JohnL]

Boris and SKS had one earlier - maybe it's the weather.

At least no-one got taken in by fake news about Laura K on this one.

[TheCat]

pk Wrote:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> so so so pathetic

So you've doubled down on your 'pathetic' line of argument? Good for you. It's not much, but it's all you have.

Oh, and while we're talking 'pathetic'. Let's remember that your original involvement in this thread was not to comment on the topic. No. It was for no other reason than post a personal insult at me. You really are a joy.

[????]

Jeeez cat 'understanding my white privilege and seeing it as psrt of the solution blah blah' is a nice theoretical debate, systematic racism and day to day discrimination is something that you and I (as a white male) know absolutely fuck all about and not some intellectual exercise.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

Thank you!

???? Wrote:

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> Jeeez cat 'understanding my white privilege and

> seeing it as psrt of the solution blah blah' is a

> nice theoretical debate, systematic racism and day

> to day discrimination is something that you and I

> (as a white male) know absolutely @#$%& all about

> and not some intellectual exercise.

[Ronnijade]

This thread should be taken down. Seems OP and his weird little white man squad are just ready and willing to antagonise. None of this should even be a discussion, and quite frankly I find it downright offensive.

[TheCat]

Ronnijade Wrote:

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> None of this should even be a discussion

Sorry?...we should not discuss racial prejudice and society's attitudes and approach to trying to address it?

Your attitude is part of the problem I'm afraid.

You clearly haven't actually read most of the thread with any semblance of openmindedness or objectivity. Just knee-jerk reaction to the fact that a sensitive issue is being discussed.

[TheCat]

DulwichBorn&Bred Wrote:

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> Thank you!

>

>

>

> ???? Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Jeeez cat 'understanding my white privilege and

> > seeing it as psrt of the solution blah blah' is

> a

> > nice theoretical debate, systematic racism and

> day

> > to day discrimination is something that you and

> I

> > (as a white male) know absolutely @#$%& all

> about

> > and not some intellectual exercise.

100 percent agreed. That's the whole point....look at the OP (and the attachment to the OP)...I'm specifically questioning all the uber theoretical language that surrounds the issue. And I think as a result, the public debate has been hijacked and seen plenty of people disengage to a large degree.

As I say in that post, the layer upon layer of rules about who is entitled talk about what, and when and how and to who is ridiculous.

Of course I don't experience day to day racism like a minority would. So I should listen to people discussing those experiences. But if the claim is that we have systemic racism...then surely the solution involves EVERYONE in the system having a view on the solution. And my issue with all this is with the media narrative that white people aren't really allowed to comment...which seems counter-productive to me....

[pk]

TheCat Wrote:

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> I should listen to people discussing those experiences

and yet you don't, you criticise unidentified people for saying things that you don't understand

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

They are allowed to comment The Cat but you do come across quite offensive and that is the issue. I find you offensive.

[Nigello]

I agree that the sometimes arcane language and references can cloud the issue. It becomes another layer of division or is used as a sword and shield. It?s almost like an industry and as such is self referential and solipsistic. Talk open and freely and listen but don?t use terms that until twitter came along were usually found in specialist texts. Everyone?s entitled to a POV. The more clearly it is expressed, and the more intently it is listened to the better.

[JohnL]

Nigello Wrote:

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> I agree that the sometimes arcane language and

> references can cloud the issue. It becomes another

> layer of division or is used as a sword and

> shield. It?s almost like an industry and as such

> is self referential and solipsistic. Talk open and

> freely and listen but don?t use terms that until

> twitter came along were usually found in

> specialist texts. Everyone?s entitled to a POV.

> The more clearly it is expressed, and the more

> intently it is listened to the better.

But if I attend a Sales and Marketing meeting they use Sales and Marketing terms. Every area has it's own terms and really it shouldn't take anyone long to acquaint themselves with the basic terms and what they mean (and I mean just google them).

For instance as employees being asked to read up on conscious inclusion and understand what it means is not unreasonable in the same way when you attend a briefing on how the company you work for is doing you are expected to google what EBITA is.

[TheCat]

pk Wrote:

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> TheCat Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I should listen to people discussing those

> experiences

>

> and yet you don't, you criticise unidentified

> people for saying things that you don't understand

Listening is not the same thing as blindly endorsing everything that someone says. One can listen and then ask questions. It's how we learn PK.

But the evidence keeps mounting that you take a different view. Can you quote me one of those clever people again please....?

[TheCat]

DulwichBorn&Bred Wrote:

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> They are allowed to comment The Cat but you do

> come across quite offensive and that is the issue.

> I find you offensive.

They are allowed to comment. As are you. And as am I.

Not much I can do about your offense, sorry. That's the thing about offence, it's subjective.

[TheCat]

Nigello Wrote:

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> I agree that the sometimes arcane language and

> references can cloud the issue. It becomes another

> layer of division or is used as a sword and

> shield. It?s almost like an industry and as such

> is self referential and solipsistic. Talk open and

> freely and listen but don?t use terms that until

> twitter came along were usually found in

> specialist texts. Everyone?s entitled to a POV.

> The more clearly it is expressed, and the more

> intently it is listened to the better.

Great comment.

[Ronnijade]

Sounds about white...