Its a minefield...

[Sephiroth]

did I mention you?

[TheCat]

At least own the comment you decided to make. How disgraceful, you're now trying to pretend you're not referring to me.

Any last respect I had for you...now gone with that post

[Sephiroth]

But as you took my post to be about you, let's go through your response

"on a number of counts you could not be more wrong."

specifically, which ones?

" Ask yourself why it is that I care about this issue so much? "

Which issue exactly? It doesn't appear to be about the plight of people affected by institutional racism. So which issue is it you refer to?

"I'm not going to answer that question publically, becuase it's none of your business."

Ah - so you will obfuscate and pontificate publicly but when challenged (or perceived to be challenged) you come over all coy?

"But you can kindly keep your character assasinations to yourself"

I never mentioned you

"and I'll be reporting your post to admin."

Do let me know how that goes

[Sephiroth]

Ah - If I had a penny for every time you claimed to have some respect for me only for it to vanish, I'd be closing in on 6p

[TheCat]

The proper thing to do. Would be to own the comment, and just apologise for overstepping the mark.

Do humour me though, and let us all know which other pudgy, white, Australian man you were referring to? Or are you now madly googling what other countries wiped our their indigenous populations, so you can claim you weren't talking about Australia.....

Hopefully the moderator will let you know directly how that goes.

[Sephiroth]

My post was indeed inspired by your posts - but what was it I wrote that upset you so much?

[Sephiroth]

for the record I speak as a pudgy, middle aged white man - so I don't consider any of those things offensive. They are what they are. But I do also realise most of these factors put me (and you) on the "sunny side of the hill" in life's lottery compared with all of the things you decide to protest against

[pk]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Seph and PK...If both of you can get past your

> prejudicial dislike of me and my posts and

> actually re-read my first two posts on this issue,

> you'll see that nowhere have I said I endorse the

> report and all its findings. In fact I've actually

> specifically said at one stage that I don't agree

> with parts of it. And yes, I have also said that

> parts of it seem reasonable and sensible, adding a

> bit of nuance to some aspects of the discussion,

> in my view.

>

> The focus of my posts is very, very clearly asking

> that people who wish to criticise and discuss the

> report to please bother reading it, to promote a

> discussion based on more than just what you've

> read second or third-hand.

>

> I don't think that's an unreasonable ask.

>

> But since neither of you can even actually be

> bothered reading my posts (which are significantly

> shorter than the report) without bile, loathing

> and personal insults dripping from your

> pores....then perhaps it is unreasonable to ask

> people like the both of you....who seemingly base

> all your thoughts on what others think, rather

> than dare to engage your brain for yourselves.

>

> Perhaps one of you wants to start a 'We hate

> TheCat' thread, so you both don't keep hijacking

> other topics constantly.

What an egomaniac

[Hamletter]

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> My post was indeed inspired by your posts - but

> what was it I wrote that upset you so much?

Most of us wait in eager anticipation for an "inspired" post from you. It would make a pleasant change from the usual antagonistic provocations you produce.

[Sephiroth]

Ah yes - being scolded by Hamletter. A "recent" addition who themselves have contributed little and yet feel free to wade in like this

One wonders who they are "in a previous life"

To be fair, clear and honest - I am not pretending to provide inspirational posts - those days of me in previous incarnations are long gone - but in 2021 the populists are running amok and I feel duty-bound to at least call them out

I have seen better posters than me make good faith arguments only to be afforded zero time or respect - so please.. spare me the advice

[Administrator]

Hamletter is currently Dyson, EDGman, effra and Tomdhu. He's been warned multiple times about multiple identities.

I feel a need to crack a nut but unfortunately I've only got a sledgehammer to hand.

[Sephiroth]

so -

back to the topic at hand

The govt race report is a massive pile of old hot garbage, not worth the paper it's written on and only Cat is seemingly up for defending it. But he won't say why

as ever, the language is careful and considered - see:

"The focus of my posts is very, very clearly asking that people who wish to criticise and discuss the report to please bother reading it, to promote a discussion based on more than just what you've read second or third-hand. "

And yet no-one who has read the report on this forum or anywhere else is minded to back it. The people quoted in the report are upset with how they are represented

and yet - "hey man, just read it - it's cool yeah"

the question is not who has read the report and to what extent - the question is why anyone would want to get behind it and for what reason?

The jury is in - it's a dogs dinner of a report - it's perfectly ok to align with people who say that. You don't need to twist yourself in knots to try and support it for any reason whatsoever. But true to form, not only will Cat defend the dogs dinner, he will start and resurrect threads doing just that and then get all pearl-clutchy when people call him out for doing so. and then, and THEN STILL actually type the following words when called out

"Ask yourself why it is that I care about this issue so much? I'm not going to answer that question publically, becuase it's none of your business. "

no-one, literally noone is asking Cat to resurrect/start these threads - but Jesus man - at least have the decency to back up your statements and don't go crying to admin because anyone dares to question you

I know its gotta hurt when your April fool thread falls so publicly flat, but that can't be the only reason for the testiness

[TheCat]

Blimey. You are a petty little man aren't you.

But you continue to project your bile about me (little hint...talking about me AGAIN, is really NOT the 'topic at hand') and celebrate your ignorance, but banging on with such conviction about a document that you haven't even read.

Please take a lesson from EDguy89 about how to discuss a topic. There was a risk at one point hat an actual interesting discussion might break out. Until sephiroth and PK chimed in, with the focus of their comments on attacking me for daring to discuss the topic,rather than actually making any attempt at good faith discussion on the report.

[Sephiroth]

Edited twice and it?s not even 8am yet?

Look, I?m not attacking your for daring to have an opinion - it?s the manner in which you constantly take what could charitably be called a ?provocative? position and then very high-handedly and arrogantly dismiss everyone else for even pointing that out

I don?t think I directed any ?bile? at you no matter how much you repeat the claim. You can dish out a fair bit as well, you do know that right?

[pk]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Blimey. You are a petty little man aren't you.

>

> But you continue to project your bile about me

> (little hint...talking about me AGAIN, is really

> NOT the 'topic at hand') and celebrate your

> ignorance, but banging on with such conviction

> about a document that you haven't even read.

>

> Please take a lesson from EDguy89 about how to

> discuss a topic. There was a risk at one point hat

> an actual interesting discussion might break out.

> Until sephiroth and PK chimed in, with the focus

> of their comments on attacking me for daring to

> discuss the topic,rather than actually making any

> attempt at good faith discussion on the report.

What a hypocritical snowflake

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

Got to say I agree with them The Cat, it?s very hard to engage with you. You are very set in your ways and nothing is going to change that, bar you changing skin colour and directly experiencing first hand what we have all been trying to explain to you. No one should have to convince you of their feelings/facts when it comes to indiscrimination and race. It?s quite insulting to be honest to have to validate what we know to be true and that unfortunately makes you part of the problem.

[KidKruger]

Cat mate, sometimes I wonder how one single poster can so perpetually and consistently always be seeming to be on the side of near-racism/sexism/fascism/whatever, not quite defending it but always in that grey area of not quite condemning it either, or at least repeatedly presenting a case ?for the defense? of borderline standpoints.

Then - having predictably provoked other posters - staying in that grey area while condemning those that engage with you.

Several times I?ve piped-up to support you when I feel you?re getting a raw deal in discussions with other posters, but you will insist on these provocations.

I guess you can take a view that everyone?s wrong, but sometimes common sense says hmmmm... but of a pattern here.

[j.a.]

Yeah, what KK and the rest said.

Cat, you don't do yourself any favours. You come here looking for reasoned debate, I genuinely believe that, but you slip into a provocative style too easily.

I get it, it's the internet, people generally come online looking to espouse and validate their views and I imagine the number of people who change their mind because of a chatroom/FB/Twatter discussion each day can be counted on the fingers of one hand. I'm ever quite sure what you're trying to achieve; I mean, you claim, to be seeking debate but you seem to really get fired up when people disagree with you, so I wonder if the drama kind of does it for you a little bit.

You remind me of someone who isn't actually looking for a discussion, but wants to find someone with an opposing point of view and then beat them in an argument. I can't quite put my finger on it, but I've never been entirely convinced by your "I'm just trying to debate" schtick; you're pretty quick to punch back, and as i say I wonder if that's partly the point of it.

Also, as KK says, some of your personal views seem to flirt with a world-view that I have to say I've encountered in Australians many times (not all Australians, obvs), and I've never been entirely happy with. For example, I'd say Australia doesn't have a lot to teach the world about race relations (I've been there several times and have family there, before you ask, and a guy in Vic Market nearly got punched for calling my mixed-race Caribbean wife a paki to her face which was not an isolated incident). To be clear I'm not calling you a racist, just saying that Australians in general have not been as aware of racial issues as they think they are (and obvs fully aware that generalisations are a minefield but also have some basis in fact).

I'm sure you're lovely though.

(ETA the caveat about generalisations)

[JohnL]

Is it Get the Cat Day ?

[TheCat]

You guys really should start that 'we hate TheCat' thread....seemingly it would get more interest than talking about racism....

[TheCat]

Wow, all this from suggesting people actually read a report. Well it seems that we are talking at some form of cross purposes here.....

What many EDF'ers perceive as 'near racsism/sexism etcetc' is actually just a total fundamental disagreement with how the progressive left (woke left?) Is trying to tackle these issues. But by questioning the method, many people seem so unable to think for themselves, that they immediately seem to assume, that I'm 'near racsist/sexist etc'. If you don't submit to critical theory, you are part of the problem, as the theory goes. Well...what if you think critical theory is the problem?

I'm just as passionate about these issues as many of my critics would purport to be. Perhaps even more in some cases, as I'm prepared to fight against the popular accepted narrative of how to help us move forward. It would be so much easier to go with the flow, I can assure you.

But I categorically object to the solution to racism to being to tell 20percent of the population they are perennial victims, and to tell 80percent that they are privileged and oppressors. I mean how farking divisive is that?!!

Does that mean I deny racism is real? Does it mean I deny that it's a problem in modern Britain? Does it mean I scoff at DulwichBornandBred if they relay an anecdote when they have suffered from racist behaviour? The answer to all those questions is a very hard, NO. Quite the opposite in fact.

So basically, the critical race theory (the thing that most of you subscribe to) goes that no matter how much someone desperately wants to not be racist, if they are white, or if they question the theory, they just are. Hence why almost everyone reading the second hand reports of the commission report are dismissing it, as guess what theory nearly all prominent race commentators adhere to?...yep, the one where questioning ANYTHING about it makes you a racist.

So let's say I agree with the theory (I don't).......what does this achieve? Let's say, I accept that I'm racist, and UK is institutionally racist. I've recognised my privilege. Now what?

To quote from the report than seemingly no one criticising my views of it (apart from EDguy89) has actually bothered to read......

"The Commissioners were not impressed by those companies that pointed to their ?unconscious

bias? training as proof of their progressive credentials. We were impressed by more conscious

attempts to foster talent from a wide range of backgrounds"

Well woebetide me!!!....apparently it's 'near rascist' to think there's merit in the idea of conscious/overt effort to improve outcomes for minority groups. What a monster I am.

One poster above accused me to being 'set in my ways'. Perhaps a look in the mirror is in order on that front.

I don't expect the usual suspects to read this with any form of self-reflection. But for those that maybe think asking questions is not the evil it's made out to be....try these perspectives......

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/a-brief-history-of-lived-experience-

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/tony-sewell-s-race-report-critics-are-guilty-of-gaslighting

(PS: sephiroth, I'll save you some time, yes, both links are to the spectator.....so you can prejudge them and this comment in your customary manner)

[Sephiroth]

won't be just me, bitch

[Sephiroth]

"But I categorically object to the solution to racism to being to tell 20percent of the population they are perennial victims, and to tell 80percent that they are privileged and oppressors. I mean how farking divisive is that?!!"

There really isn't anything to help this man is there?

Government commissions a report Not To Investigate racism but To Reassure White People They Aren't Racist and sure enough....White PeopleWho Don't Want To Be Called Racist Lap Dat Shit Up

A few people have chimed in today In Way More Polite Terms than I would use to try and advise someone to take a moment of reflection - and this is the best they can come up with. A Screed of alt-right "IM NOT RACIST" tropes

"So let's say I agree with the theory (I don't).......what does this achieve? Let's say, I accept that I'm racist, and UK is institutionally racist. I've recognised my privilege. Now what? "

seriously. - if the rest of us have figured it out, what is your problem? What do you WANT to do?

To take one example, I want companies who deny interviews to (eg) people with obviously Nigerian names only to give exactly same people who use anglicised names an interview to be called out - I mean why wouldn't you?

Why are you fighting this? Why?

To move away from race issues - you have zero problem taking issue with loads of people on all manner of subjects. You don't read people writing posts you disagree with and think "fair point. even if I disagree with them, no point me posting because NOW WHAT????"

[Sephiroth]

2 speccie links

one is already withdrawn (or, to be fair, possibly mis-posted by Cat)

Second is by Fekking Tombs

I'm not PRE judging them - I'm judging them on own merits

Do I think Britain is BETTER than many other countries in it's treatment of non-white groups, compared to many countries ? Yes I do - we can agree on something? yay

Is that enough? Is that the end of the story? Are we winning 1-0 with 20 minutes to go? Are there problems with this self-congratulatory position? YES! Many problems. And if you can't see what those problems are without reflexively, defensively "yeah butting" I can't help you

Britain wants to claim to be world-leading in this and other areas - but if it wants to claim that, it has to be honest with itself about the problems that remain

[j.a.]

Cat, given that you and I might possibly agree on a lot more than you think we do, you've managed to miss the point spectacularly. I won't be posting again here as I'm involved in several conversations about the report IRL and there's only so much I can handle - which is my way of saying that it's not you, it's my mother-in-law and work colleagues etc etc.

However, once again you've punched back hard and I suspect undermined your arguments. Plus ca change...

Point I will chuck out there though on my way out the room...

When you mention the progressive left I'd say you actually mean (though may not realise it) the hard left. I'd gently suggest that you remember Twatter/social media in general isn't real life, not even close, and most of the progressive left ddoes not - I suspect (could be wrong of course) subscribe to critical race theory; in fact I reckon most people think it's bollox - I certainly do.

I don't think it's about people being 'perennial victims', or the rest of us being 'oppressors', but rather that just because racism isn't as bad as it used to be, or that the UK is better than other places it doesn't mean the problem has gone away. You know this of course, you know racism is still, unfortunately, a thing. How do we start to dig down into the specific issues that minority communities face - which may very well not be caused by racism - without first making Herculean efforts to handle that?

I'm probably not making much sense I and apologise for that. I guess my salient point is that less than sixty years ago an MP won election to Parliament on the slogan "If You Want A N***** For A Neighbour Vote Labour" There are people alive who voted for him and raised their kids using the same ethics and morals that allowed them to do so. We haven't come as far as we think, we're kidding ourselves if we think we have. The Race Relations Acts and the rest of it were just the beginning and frankly that was the easy part, now it's down into the detail of how we as individuals handle it in day to day life. I mean for f's sake, they just kicked a copper out for being an actual Nazi - was he a one-off or does the problem go deeper (I think it probably does).

We're so far from solving this issue - just look at other parts of the world (cough cough Americe) to see how divisive race still is, and I think the best thing we can all do right now is agree that the problem still exists. After that we can can hopefully have debates about the way to resolve it, but frankly Sewells report (which I admit I've only skimmed) seems a bit like it was written as a front in the culture war.

It's a horrendously complex issue. It drives me to despair. Social media is probably the worst place to debate it. Feel free to PM me if you want to shout at me or something, but I'll duck out of this thread now.