Stay Alert

[TheCat]

The media, social media and politicians across the nation seem to be getting very worked up about the meaning of our new slogan today.

Personally, it seems like willful obstinance from those complaining the loudest, who are using it as just another political/pointscoring excercise against Boris and co.

I mean statements like 'the virus is invisible, so how are we meant to stay alert to something invisible!??' Just sounds petty and pathetic to me.

I'm not saying I love it. But surely we can all hold fire until after 7pm tonight? If Boris's address doesn't provide the nessesary clarity, and leaves us feeling 'ambiguous'...then fire away....

But to have a day of 'shouting' over the various possible interpretations of one word before the details are public just seems ridiculous to me....

[diable rouge]

Regardless of the wording, if they have to explain it, then it's already failed as a messaging exercise...

[hpsaucey]

diable rouge Wrote:

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> Regardless of the wording, if they have to explain

> it, then it's already failed as a messaging

> exercise...

This :)

[TheCat]

diable rouge Wrote:

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> Regardless of the wording, if they have to explain

> it, then it's already failed as a messaging

> exercise...

The previous slogan was 'stay home'....but there were a number of times you were allowed to leave home. Was this also a failed message?....or did most people wait for clarification before boarding up their doors and windows....?

The main criticism TThe moment that I think is valid, is why release the new slogan 24 hours before the briefing? Thus giving rise to the reactions we have seen today....

[Blah Blah]

20,000 people are still catching the virus every day. Let's talk again about the infection rate in four weeks time. We never locked down fully. Easing before that infection rate gets right down is going to be a mistake.

'Staying alert' to something invisible, both during its incubation period and in asymtomatic people is meaningless waffle. Government wanted to change the messaging for one reason only, to look as though we are moving towards a new phase. It is a psychological trick, but one that may backfire if people stop making only essential journeys, social distancing, and isolating where necessary. To be fair, that was already beginning to happen (with the arrival of summer weather), so it is a difficult thing to manage in a country that has no means to enforce it. But that is why we also now have the second highest (declared) death rate in the world.

[JohnL]

It's the green colour which is subliminal for GO just as the previous red colour said STOP.

But - I hear Boris's speech today has been pre-recorded and there are lots of rumours he's had enough of being PM.

Edit: Just checked with the Standard and it is "Mr Johnson's pre-recorded speech will be shown at 7pm." so I'll watch the highlights of it at my leisure.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/what-time-boris-johnson-speech-today-lockdown-a4436486.html

[Blah Blah]

Boris may be finding the workload challenging I think. But if those rumours are true, then I think it is not a good sign of what is to come. Being a PM is a full time job with little freedom. Boris already new that, so he has no excuses now. He wanted the job. He needs to get on with it.

[diable rouge]

TheCat Wrote:

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> I'm not saying I love it. But surely we can all

> hold fire until after 7pm tonight? If Boris's

> address doesn't provide the nessesary clarity, and

> leaves us feeling 'ambiguous'...then fire

> away....

People aren't shooting in the dark over this, the Gov has already issued a clarification of the meaning of the new slogans. That's what people are highlighting, that it's meaningless, vague, and open to interpretation. It's a crap slogan, substitute Alert with Safe and it becomes a lot better...

[diable rouge]

Blah Blah Wrote:

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> Boris may be finding the workload challenging

He's never had what you would call a challenging job. Arguably his hardest to date, Foreign Secretary, actually suited him down to a tee, all that schmoozing, lots of foreign travel, a ready made excuse to avoid the scrutiny of Parliament, something we saw he failed miserably at when Starmer forensically questioned him last week...

[diable rouge]

Blah Blah Wrote:

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> Government wanted to change the messaging for one reason only, to look

> as though we are moving towards a new phase.

I think it's also to do with making the Gov look less responsible should there be a second wave and spike. Don't forget this is a Gov that is well versed in the blame game. They'd never release a mea culpa statement like the Swedish Gov did.

Although it wasn't, the Stay Home slogan could be seen as an order by the Gov, and it worked because in a crisis populations on the whole tend to be compliant, certainly in initial stages. The Stay Alert slogan is much more ambiguous and therefore puts more onus on the public...

[Peckhampam]

Hi Blah blah

You mentioned something I don't understand. You said "so it(lockdown) is a difficult thing to manage in a country that has no means to enforce it." But we have the same enforcement means, a police force, that other democratic european countries -France, Italy, Spain - have. What is the difference?

[Blah Blah]

The difference is resources and culture. We have a small police force which is unarmed. There is no paramilitary element to it like in France etc. We have approx 212 police officers per 100,000 people. France has 326, Spain 361, Italy 453.

[seenbeen]

It was obvious from almost day 1 that a hard core of people were NOT going to Stay at Home and were going to do just as they liked- and since the scenes on the weekend- London Fields, Westminster Bridge and Alleyns' Field was just as bad- someone even dumped their unused ice on the grass...people sitting around in groups of 6 in a circle with still air breathing and speaking to each other from a distance, broadcasting their exhalations with or without virus on it, creating micro-environments for the virus to spread ...I think the Government have given up on the Stay at Home it is impossible to police ...

I see that 2 29 year-old health workers died of it over the weekend....

[JohnL]

Boris just confused everyone now. You're supposed to go to work but not use public transport and no guidance for employers will be published until Wednesday. What will employers do when people turn up after being told to with a few hours notice ?

"Richard Burge, chief executive of London Chamber of Commerce, said: ?My strong and unequivocal advice to London businesses is not to change your plans for tomorrow. You have not been given sufficient information on how to get your employees safely to work, nor how to keep them safe while they are there.

?At the moment, it would be foolish for any business leader to encourage staff not already undertaking essential work to do anything but to continue to work from home tomorrow if they can do so.?

[KidKruger]

Lambs to the slaughter.

[diable rouge]

Gov Before - Stay at home, but ok to go to work if it's safe to do so.

Gov Now - Go to work, but if it's not safe to do so, stay at home.

As you were...

[TheCat]

So, while its more than fair to say that Boris's address was a little haphazard, once again I find the hysteria and the faux 'confusion' emanating from some parts of the country to be ridiculous.

Could it have been clearer? yes. Could it have been slightly different? Yes...

But...who the heck is going to just 'turn up' for work this morning without first having had a discussion with their boss? If anyone is aware if had queues of 'confused' workers outside manufacturing plants this morning, wondering why the gates are shut, then I'll stand corrected.

Also, all these labour politicians 'confused' about the public being told to go work if they can and avoid public transport If at all possible. I don't understand how that is confusing? If you can get to work another way (and your workplace knows you're coming) then use that other method. In anycase, DFT stats show that 83percent of people in this country get to work by means other than public transport anyway....so while there's much to criticise about the new plans....stirring up faux 'confusion' just seems to make unessesary noise which means addressing real criticism gets lost...

For example...I'd much prefer the press and opposition to be asking why families who have been isolated for 6 weeks, can't perhaps choose another household who have been isolated for 6 weeks - and interact with them without the 2m rule (I.e. kids spending time grandparents before they go back to school, as once that happens don't they then risk infecting grandparents again, and contact isn't advised?)....

I know some people will want clearer guudines, but surely we can keep a lid on the hyperbole, and focus on whether the 'common sense' interpretation of what's been proposed is actually the right course of action right now?

[siousxiesue]

I don't think the confusion is faux at all.

Dominic Raab was on R4 Today programme and made two errors in interpretation, so if the cabinet are confused (or at least one of them) what does that say about the level of comprehension to these 'changes'

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> So, while its more than fair to say that Boris's

> address was a little haphazard, once again I find

> the hysteria and the faux 'confusion' emanating

> from some parts of the country to be ridiculous.

>

> Could it have been clearer? yes. Could it have

> been slightly different? Yes...

>

> But...who the heck is going to just 'turn up' for

> work this morning without first having had a

> discussion with their boss? If anyone is aware if

> had queues of 'confused' workers outside

> manufacturing plants this morning, wondering why

> the gates are shut, then I'll stand corrected.

>

> Also, all these labour politicians 'confused'

> about the public being told to go work if they can

> and avoid public transport If at all possible. I

> don't understand how that is confusing? If you can

> get to work another way (and your workplace knows

> you're coming) then use that other method. In

> anycase, DFT stats show that 83percent of people

> in this country get to work by means other than

> public transport anyway....so while there's much

> to criticise about the new plans....stirring up

> faux 'confusion' just seems to make unessesary

> noise which means addressing real criticism gets

> lost...

>

> For example...I'd much prefer the press and

> opposition to be asking why families who have been

> isolated for 6 weeks, can't perhaps choose another

> household who have been isolated for 6 weeks - and

> interact with them without the 2m rule (I.e. kids

> spending time grandparents before they go back to

> school, as once that happens don't they then risk

> infecting grandparents again, and contact isn't

> advised?)....

>

> I know some people will want clearer guudines, but

> surely we can keep a lid on the hyperbole, and

> focus on whether the 'common sense' interpretation

> of what's been proposed is actually the right

> course of action right now?

[Blah Blah]

Can you give a link for that 83 percent stat TheCat? I think you are taking the figure for ALL journeys made as opposed to journeys made to travel to work. The report from the DFT states that when considering both workers and non-workers, more than 80% of people entering Central London during the morning peak used rail-based modes of transport. In London, before the lockdown, that equates to millions of people using public transport to get to work.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/870647/tsgb-2019.pdf

You ask for common sense, well here it is. We have an invisible virus that is still infecting 20,000 people a day. Until the government have a well resourced track and trace network in place, accompanied by testing units all over the country that ANY concerned member of the public can access, there is no strategy to stop that infection rate rising again, and a lock down returning. Whilst I agree that no worker is going to return to work until they have been instructed by their employers to do so, the government has to come up with something better than 'avoid public transport if you can'. Labour also have to be careful to not play politics with this pandemic. Pressing the government for exit plans when we are still waiting to see what works for other countries may backfire.

Note that China has reported new cases of infection in a province in the North, not linked to people coming into the country from elsewhere. Also, immediately after that statement, Boris was called by Macron protesting the 14 day quarantine announced for people arriving from abroad, and guess what? He caved. Those traveling from France will be exempt from the quarantine. Make of that what you will.

[dbboy]

James o'brien on LBC for three hours yet again picking holes in everything, moan, moan, moan and any opportunity to have a dig at Boris and the Govt. Rather than continually looking to find fault, why can't people like him pull together during this National emergency.

[diable rouge]

dbboy Wrote:

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> James o'brien on LBC for three hours yet again

> picking holes in everything, moan, moan, moan and

> any opportunity to have a dig at Boris and the

> Govt. Rather than continually looking to find

> fault, why can't people like him pull together

> during this National emergency.

Yeah, let's all forget about accountability and wash our hands of 50,000+ deaths...

[dbboy]

NO, I'm not saying that at ALL.

[seenbeen]

dbboy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> James o'brien on LBC for three hours yet again

> picking holes in everything, moan, moan, moan and

> any opportunity to have a dig at Boris and the

> Govt. Rather than continually looking to find

> fault, why can't people like him pull together

> during this National emergency.

The man has a narcissistic personality disorder - he hogs the air time with his rants that have half-truths and outright lies in them. What amazes me is that he NEVER offers up a solution of his own for any problem.

As far as the change of slogan goes I think the Government have given up on the hard core of people who have never followed lockdown...this last weekend was a prime example of how - short of getting the army mobilised- there is no chance of curtailing the freedom of so many selfish people.

By saying 'Stay Alert' he probably means lay off the sauce and the drugs and then you might be able to maneuver your way around without getting infected or infecting others.

[TheCat]

Blah Blah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Can you give a link for that 83 percent stat

> TheCat? I think you are taking the figure for ALL

> journeys made as opposed to journeys made to

> travel to work. The report from the DFT states

> that when considering both workers and

> non-workers, more than 80% of people entering

> Central London during the morning peak used

> rail-based modes of transport. In London, before

> the lockdown, that equates to millions of people

> using public transport to get to work.

>

> https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen

> t/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/8706

> 47/tsgb-2019.pdf

Its on the top right of page 4 of the report that you link to above. "Usual method of travel to work, Great Britain, 2018". To be fair, I've only categorized train and bus as 'public transport' one could argue about the 5% of 'other' - but Im assuming most of that is cyclists (in anycase the numbers are roughly what I originally said) . You are right thouhg, London is indeed very different, but I was referring to the national figures.

>

> You ask for common sense, well here it is. We have

> an invisible virus that is still infecting 20,000

> people a day. Until the government have a well

> resourced track and trace network in place,

> accompanied by testing units all over the country

> that ANY concerned member of the public can

> access, there is no strategy to stop that

> infection rate rising again, and a lock down

> returning. Whilst I agree that no worker is going

> to return to work until they have been instructed

> by their employers to do so, the government has to

> come up with something better than 'avoid public

> transport if you can'. Labour also have to be

> careful to not play politics with this pandemic.

> Pressing the government for exit plans when we are

> still waiting to see what works for other

> countries may backfire.

I think that is all very (common) sensible - your broader points are worthy of discussion. But I dont think you are really guilty of the thrust of my OP today. You rightfully question why rules are the way they are and how that makes sense versus what we know about the virus etc - you're not creating pointless hypotheticals like "If im sitting on a park bench, and my mother is sitting on the other end of the bench, but then my father runs past exercising, is he allowed to pause and speak to us?"...which is an example of the extreme sort of 'hysteria' and faux confusion referring to....

In my view, there are plenty of things that things that need clarifying as to WHY they are the way they are; but I dont think there's that much that needs clarifying as to WHAT we are being asked to do. I.e. wear a face covering when around other people is not prescriptive enough for some of the 'confused' people, but really most people can interpert when it makes sense to wear one...the more important questions are things like 'what impact will that have on transmission? Does it mitigate the risk of being close to other people to an acceptable level? etc etc

[diable rouge]

seenbeen Wrote:

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> As far as the change of slogan goes I think the

> Government have given up on the hard core of

> people who have never followed lockdown...this

> last weekend was a prime example of how - short of

> getting the army mobilised- there is no chance of

> curtailing the freedom of so many selfish people.

20,000 less bobbies didn't help...