What will be the 'new normal' for transport in ED post Covid-19

[Penguin68]

This is 100% wrong. You don't wait until the whole house is ablaze before calling the fire brigade.

Actually, pollution currently is down, traffic is way down, the house is precisely not on fire at the moment, and when it does catch light again we don't yet know where the fire will break out. If I called the fire brigade out to your house now and they started randomly pumping water at it, on the off chance that fire might start where they're pumping, you'd probably be pretty p**sed off.

[gromit316]

how does boris expect everyone to walk to work? 40 minutes walk is possible, but anything over an hour people will soon get bored of it..

walking from Dulwich to the west end to end up standing up all day on a shop floor is not practical.

[malumbu]

I've worked in and around transport policy for a long time, and somewhere before that turned into an activist, not that the 18 year old me ever saw that happening when I passed my driving test.

What we have been lacking is some hard interventions, serious nudges/changes to behaviour and joined up thinking across local and national government. Comparisons to smoking are always an interesting one. Evidence of the link to cancer was 60 years ago, we had years of public information campaigns, skull and cross bows on fag packets and slowly smoking came down. Then magic, banned and in 15 years far greater impact.

We fluff around about air pollution and vulnerability of children. Yet it makes hardly a jot of difference to how many of us act. It is simple to turn your engine off when the car is stationary. It saves you money let alone cuts the pollution. But what do the masses do?

So here is our opportunity. London is ahead of the curve in terms of cycling (ignoring some of the outer boroughs). But there simply isn't enough road space. And some of the cycle schemes have been counterproductive in increasing congestion, slowing down bus journeys and actually leading to a return to the car for some. so you have to make it more painful for the motorist. Not that they then seek an alternative routes, create more congestion hotspots etc. But they they say, is there alternative means of getting from A to B, if I need to. Dare I say it, even share a journey.

We are on the verge of a revolution in connectivity. I hope that sooner or later many will choose not to own a vehicle of their own. But again counterproductive if the bus lanes are full of electric car club vehicles. And whilst doing all this there are essential vehicles on the road and for some where there is no alternative.

My biggest bugbear is car utility (parked on the street and when used single occupant only) and how crap we are driving. Soft on the accelerator, soft on the brake, and anticipate. Once you have mastered that basic suddenly driving is a pleasure without putting your foot down. I seem to have caught you up at the lights without braking once.

Of course when I see family in satellite/dormitory towns part of dual carriageway networks close to or in urban conurbations they think I am a crazy tree hugger....

And not to underestimate how affordable motoring changed the landscape in the 60s and 70s

[andynic]

Penguin68 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> This is 100% wrong. You don't wait until the whole

> house is ablaze before calling the fire brigade.

>

> Actually, pollution currently is down, traffic is

> way down, the house is precisely not on fire at

> the moment, and when it does catch light again we

> don't yet know where the fire will break out. If I

> called the fire brigade out to your house now and

> they started randomly pumping water at it, on the

> off chance that fire might start where they're

> pumping, you'd probably be pretty p**sed off.

Actually, the house is very much on fire. Attention spans are short and news cycles are shorter but we are in a climate crisis and the current drop in CO2 emissions is a drop in the ocean compared to what is needed to prevent an unsustainable increase in global temperatures. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-52370221

Pollution is one aspect but the emissions associated with car use are just as dangerous as the virus over time. We have an opportunity to improve transport for all now and we can?t go back to individual car use as the norm.

[Monkey]

Agree, Gromit. Walking to work would take me two hours and 30mns according to Google maps. And I?m not getting on a bike after the crazy driving I?ve seen this weekend...

[Sally Eva]

If you are seriously considering cycling, do not consider necessarily doing it on the roads you see through the bus window. I commute to Paddington (when I am allowed to) and only about 100m of that journey is on public roads shared with cars (FWIW I mostly walk that bit)

for alternative routes which are bike friendly try cycle.travel or DM me and I'll send an alternative route. ED to Central London is an easy, mostly off-road cycle taking me 40 mins (I'm very old and slow). Google Cycleway 7 to see what I'm talking about. The route from ED does contain a hill :(

Monkey Wrote:

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> Agree, Gromit. Walking to work would take me two

> hours and 30mns according to Google maps. And I?m.

> It getting on a bike after the crazy driving I?ve

> seen this weekend...

[Sue]

NewWave Wrote:

------------------------------------------------------

>

>

> Its a real worry..I dont drive can't ride a bike

> and aged over 60 I dont want to try and learn on

> Londons roads.

Obviously they aren't happening at the moment, but you can get free cycling lessons. They are one to one, and they start off in the park (Dulwich or Peckham Rye). I can't remember who runs them.

I was well over 6O when I had them.

Also, there are routes through London which enable you to avoid the busiest main roads and interchanges (not sure that's the right word!)

[goldilocks]

Just again to reiterate - no one is suggesting that everyone has to cycle, but for those of you who believe that you can't then you should be encouraging every single other person who can walk, cycle or scoot to do so. In addition, this belief that you can't cycle is not always the case - look at Wheels for Wellbeing for inspiration, or for those commenting on the hills consider an ebike as they totally address that concern!

Each person choosing active travel is one person less on the bus, train or adding to the congestion on the roads! Therefore surely everyone should be able to get behind making our roads safer for active travel as it benefits everyone, not just those doing it! Put simply, there isn't enough space for the existing vehicle traffic on our roads so not sure where anyone things additional cars are going to go. This is without even considering the public health impacts of more driving (pollution from exhausts / braking / tyre wear and resulting obesity as a result of a lack of exercise).

[first mate]

E-bikes are heavy. Not easy to lug around or get into offices, shops etc..and probably more vulnerable to theft if chained outside. Not sure how realistic a solution this is to our local hill issue tbh. Seems anyone young and fit can cycle but older folk, as a solution it?s not really workable, in my view.

[goldilocks]

Not all of them - there has been a shift to lighter batteries on newer bikes - or ones where you can take the battery off to disable them. Theft is a concern - but lots of workplaces have secure bike parking and for those that don't , its time to start lobbying for secure cycle storage. Not everyone will need ebikes - folding bikes are a genuine alternative for those who don't have secure cycle storage and the council need to make more bike hanger provision locally. Bike insurance and decent locks are required too!

Again - no one is suggesting that everyone has to cycle, just that the oft quoted 'I can't' might not be the whole story AND that even if you can't, encouraging others to do so will benefit everyone as they leave more transport options open for you so everyone is a winner!

Its time to get behind changes like the Healthy Streets initiatives, stop kicking out good options in pursuit of perfect ones, understanding that there will always be tweaks and improvements necessary and that once changes start then more can be put in, but we have to start somewhere and waiting for a London wide plan that is implemented in one go is unrealistic!

[exdulwicher]

Monkey Wrote:

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> Agree, Gromit. Walking to work would take me two

> hours and 30mns according to Google maps. And I?m

> not getting on a bike after the crazy driving I?ve

> seen this weekend...

As mentioned - no-one is suggesting that every single person walk or cycle every single journey. But what threads like this always bring out is people quoting one example - yours of going to and from work for instance or people going "I drive a builder's van with loads of tools". Absolutely - in those cases it's clearly not practical to walk 3hrs each way per day or try to carry all your plumbing kit round in a rucksack. But what about the other journeys you make? To the shops, the pub, to see friends... Obviously not all of those are applicable right now but as we come out of lockdown, those journeys will once again be on the table.

But if we all try driving them, the roads won't work. That's a given, even the Government can see that. So we HAVE to try something else. We need to maintain distance (at the moment, and potentially for a quite a while). We can't do that on the existing pavements, we can't fit an extra 500 cars per hour on the roads so that leaves re-allcation of road space away from private cars towards people to allow efficient transport for everyone. YOU might not be able to walk or cycle much but at some point in a journey, you'll be walking - even if you've driven to the shops, you'll need to be moving around on a pavement and staying 2m away from others.

The people that can walk, cycle and scooter for that particular journey should aim to do so. That frees up road space for those who need to use a vehicle for their particular journey. Knowing of course that people can and do swap modes of transport.

Coming out of lockdown, if every child is being driven to school to avoid buses, trains etc, we'll be back at square one of the arguments going on over on that Healthy Streets thread - congestion, lack of parking, pollution. There are a dozen schools within a stones throw around ED.

Numerous examples of other cities worldwide doing similar things becasue it is the only feasible option to maintain distancing and fit everyone into the finite space.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/germany-coronavirus-road-space-cycle-lanes-berlin-a9462771.html

[Otto2]

Just to say, e-bikes ARE a good fit for those that might have fitness or health issues that keep them from cycling or cycling as much as they'd like. I'm on the older side and have severe asthma which means I can't get up hills as I don't have the lung capacity. I have an e-bike and it solves that problem. It also give me confidence I can go on longer journeys and not feel sweaty or overtired. You can also put the e-bike in resistance mode to charge up the battery - useful for downhill, and, you get more exercise that way as well. I have a regular bike that is more of a pleasure ride (on flats) and I use them both, according to where I am going...

[Rockets]

I hope the powers that be at local, regional and national level take a pragmatic approach to this. Yes there is clearly an opportunity to change travel trends and usage in light of the pandemic but they cannot, as they have done in the past, take a sledge hammer to crack a nut and they have to be mindful of what is actually happening rather than pursuing their own agendas.

They need to be mindful that the majority of these people will be moving away from public transport - which has, for so long, been lauded as one of the solutions to the pollution problems - that is a huge issue as so much of our road and transport infrastructure is built around, and prioritises, public transportation.

Careful thinking and planning needs to go into this - for example, the temporary widening of pavements at choke points makes perfect sense - but this cannot be a trojan horse employed to carve up what is left of the road dedicated to car use - that would be a foolish pursuit as car use will have to increase if public transport is limited.

Also I read people lobbying to get e-scooters legalised and whilst they seem like a commonsense approach to travelling longer distances they do come with big challenges, namely rider safety (we have all seen the idiots buzzing along the roads at breakneck speeds on them) and, I visited Munich and they are legal there and the city is littered with thousands and thousands of the things, just left waiting for the next person to jump on one - cluttering pavements and creating a huge eyesore. I sense this may have been more about companies rushing to try and claim a stake in the e-scooter rental market but if you thought discarded Lime bikes were a pain you wait until the e-scooters arrive!

[NewWave]

gromit3:16 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> how does boris expect everyone to walk to work?

> 40 minutes walk is possible, but anything over an

> hour people will soon get bored of it..

> walking from Dulwich to the west end to end up

> standing up all day on a shop floor is not

> practical.

Thats me..I have to be at work 9.30-6pm its 7.5 miles door to door which according to google will take me 2 hours 30mins (probably longer..I'm a slow walker) and aside from my hour's lunch break I stand all day.

I really cannot do that 5 days a week

[NewWave]

Sue Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> NewWave Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> ----

> >

> >

> > Its a real worry..I dont drive can't ride a

> bike

> > and aged over 60 I dont want to try and learn

> on

> > Londons roads.

>

>

> Obviously they aren't happening at the moment, but

> you can get free cycling lessons. They are one to

> one, and they start off in the park (Dulwich or

> Peckham Rye). I can't remember who runs them.

>

> I was well over 6O when I had them.

>

> Also, there are routes through London which enable

> you to avoid the busiest main roads and

> interchanges (not sure that's the right word!)

I really cannot ride a bike-not only am I scared to but I have problems with my balance so wobbling across london is not an option I'm afraid even though I wish it was

[Sally Eva]

Free cycle lessons are happening now -- currently key workers only but in the longer term (whatever that is) for everyone

https://www.cycleconfident.com/

Glad you enjoyed them :)

Sue Wrote:

> you can get free cycling lessons. They are one to

> one, and they start off in the park (Dulwich or

> Peckham Rye). I can't remember who runs them.

>

> I was well over 6O when I had them.

>

> Also, there are routes through London which enable

> you to avoid the busiest main roads and

> interchanges (not sure that's the right word!)

[exdulwicher]

NewWave Wrote:

>

> Thats me..I have to be at work 9.30-6pm its 7.5

> miles door to door which according to google will

> take me 2 hours 30mins (probably longer..I'm a

> slow walker) and aside from my hour's lunch break

> I stand all day.

> I really cannot do that 5 days a week

As before, no-one is asking (or telling) you to do that. You sound like one of the key workers who might have to use public transport or drive a private vehicle.

The problem is that if everyone else, for every journey they have to make, also goes by private car then your journey is going to take 2.5hrs anyway - it's just that you'll be stuck in traffic for all of it and have nowhere to park at the end!

Everyone knows that there are some journeys that cannot be made by bike / scooter or on foot. It's still important that roads are maintained for deliveries, emergency servcies and essential journeys. The point is not the individual, it's saying that if people are to move around efficiently and be able to maintain (as far as reaosnably practical) a 2m distance to each other, some road space is going to have to be reallocated to pedestrians. Much of the pavement down Lordship Lane is not 2m wide, you can already see people stepping into the street to get past others and where there's a queue at a bus stop or outside a shop (even if it's just 5 people), that's still 10 sq m of pavement space minimum. So some road space needs to go to "spillover". You can still run cars and buses down the middle but if everyone decides to drive, that'll be solid within minutes, everyone can understand that.

All it's saying is to walk or cycle where reasonably possible. And councils can put (and are putting) in temporary measures to enable that safely. You only need to look at some of the other traffic-related threads on here to see how many journeys CAN be made by walking and cycling, there are stories of neighbours driving 1/4 mile to the school gates and back again or 1/2 mile into the village for a loaf of bread. That's not going to be feasible in future! And if they can walk or cycle, then that frees up the increasingly narrowed / filtered roads to allow you to drive or get the bus 7.5 miles to your workplace, hopefully without sharing a bus with 50 other people or being stuck in an endless traffic jam.

[Sally Eva]

Friend of mine in that position rides a tricycle (an adult size one obvs)

check out Wheels for Wellbeing

pictures here: https://wheelsforwellbeing.org.uk/

NewWave Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Sue Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > NewWave Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > ----

> > >

> > >

> > > Its a real worry..I dont drive can't ride a

> > bike

> > > and aged over 60 I dont want to try and learn

> > on

> > > Londons roads.

> >

> >

> > Obviously they aren't happening at the moment,

> but

> > you can get free cycling lessons. They are one

> to

> > one, and they start off in the park (Dulwich

> or

> > Peckham Rye). I can't remember who runs them.

> >

> > I was well over 6O when I had them.

> >

> > Also, there are routes through London which

> enable

> > you to avoid the busiest main roads and

> > interchanges (not sure that's the right word!)

>

>

> I really cannot ride a bike-not only am I scared

> to but I have problems with my balance so wobbling

> across london is not an option I'm afraid even

> though I wish it was

[Nigello]

Exdulwicher said - there are stories of neighbours driving 1/4 mile to the school gates and back again or 1/2 mile into the village for a loaf of bread. That's not going to be feasible in future!

Never underestimate the solipsism of the human being. Practically everyone has made a short car trip and probably all will do it again ?just this once?, so I don?t see this changing. (I?ve not driven in twenty years but I know how easy it is to kid yourself that your little trip doesn?t matter ?in the grand scheme of things?.)

Schools have to get tough on this because very few individuals will decide not to make a school run. Only when a body like the school or the council really makes it hard will things change.

[NewWave]

Sally Eva Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Friend of mine in that position rides a tricycle

> (an adult size one obvs)

> check out Wheels for Wellbeing

> pictures here: https://wheelsforwellbeing.org.uk/

>

>

> NewWave Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Sue Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > NewWave Wrote:

> > >

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> >

> > > ----

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Its a real worry..I dont drive can't ride a

> > > bike

> > > > and aged over 60 I dont want to try and

> learn

> > > on

> > > > Londons roads.

> > >

> > >

> > > Obviously they aren't happening at the

> moment,

> > but

> > > you can get free cycling lessons. They are

> one

> > to

> > > one, and they start off in the park (Dulwich

> > or

> > > Peckham Rye). I can't remember who runs them.

> > >

> > > I was well over 6O when I had them.

> > >

> > > Also, there are routes through London which

> > enable

> > > you to avoid the busiest main roads and

> > > interchanges (not sure that's the right

> word!)

> >

> >

> > I really cannot ride a bike-not only am I

> scared

> > to but I have problems with my balance so

> wobbling

> > across london is not an option I'm afraid even

> > though I wish it was

Thank you for the link..sounds like a great charity.

but I'm not disabled.

I could ride an adult tricycle for sure but have no idea where I'd leave in in the west end whilst I was at work.

I think I'm just going to have to get mask and gloves and use the tube and overground like before sadly

[Sally Eva]

For anyone thinking of cycling (maybe while the roads are quieter) -- short, safe rides around Southwark.

Like this one:

"To celebrate our new found freedom to exercise as much as we want, a new route, Camberwell Open Spaces. It starts centrally in Peckham Square next to Peckham Library. 6 miles and not quite flat. A circular route more or less staying in Camberwell. It runs through a series of open spaces, some large like Burgess Park, some very small like Elam Street Open Space and Sceaux Gardens. In between always on quiet streets. Choose a sunny day if you can and enjoy our beautiful parks, large and small. Route map at

and detailed navigation guide attached. "

If you want to see all the 9 of the lockdown routes, they are here:

A bit tangled I know. If too tangled DM me and I will get them sorted out.