Heresy?

[fishbiscuits]

I haven't been joining in every Thurs, but we've done it a couple of times. It's a nice thing to do, and I have heard several accounts of NHS staff appreciating it - finding it moving, even.

As others have mentioned... I guess when the worst of this is over, we'll find out whether this new found appreciation of our health service is really genuine.

[NewWave]

edcam Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I?d prefer the government hadn?t let the NHS down,

> both prior to and during the pandemic. I?d also

> prefer that Brexit and the mood of

> anti-immigration in this country hadn?t done so

> much to undermine so many who work in the NHS but

> the clapping every week does at least unite people

> in being thankful for what we have.

Seconded

[????]

edcam Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Anyone with more than one brain cell knows how the

> Tories want the NHS gone for their profit. I have

> zero tolerance for what they have done to this

> country.

>

Crap take. The left has been banging on about this for years and years and yet the NHS still stands. It's bullshit, I've zero tolerance for such self righteous, moronic certainty to be honest. No nuance, no analysis, no relation to facts, I have no doubt you sincerely believe this but it's fantasy.

[seenbeen]

Blah Blah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> seenbeen Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > and other health care professionals who

> received

> > free training as midwives, nurses, physios,

> > nutritionists and then promptly flee into the

> > private sector.

>

> Utter tosh. All of those positions require a

> degree level of education which the STUDENT pays

> for through the student loan scheme. Even when

> bursaries existed, they in no way covered the

> costs of getting those degrees. Most of those

> degrees are also done at teaching hospitals. No

> detail of anything in that article either.

>

> The NHS is not the same thing as the Armed

> services either.

The article was purely about doctors being trained here and then going abroad...it costs the UK taxpayer over ?200,000 to train a doctor and they do not pay that amount back- nowhere near...but they leave the UK....that is WRONG.

Also it was Labour that began to privatise the NHS

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/03/how-labour-broke-nhs-and-why-labour-must-fix-it

- and anyway, almost every single piece of equipment etc comes from the private sector and has done for decades...the only actual thing the taxpayers fund directly is the training of the staff, and then they flee.

Interestingly, lab diagnostic staff do NOT get bursaries for their degrees and never have done.

Of course, the UK then has to take staff from other countries- is that fair? What effect does that have on their health care system?

Remember, the taxpayers' pockets are not bottomless pits.

[tomskip]

I think we should be trying to emulate the health service in Germany. Population 83.02 million, coronavirus deaths 5880.

Population of the UK 66.65 million, coronavirus deaths 20,732 excluding a scary number of care home deaths.

That's not all down to testing. It's to do with the care people get before they become critically ill and unable to speak through breathlessness.

I would prefer to have that kind of health service. You don't see anarchy on the streets of Germany due to over-taxation.

[seenbeen]

German docs get paid la lot less than ours

https://www.quora.com/Which-countries-are-physicians-paid-the-most

[Blah Blah]

The table in your link is 11 years old! There are different grades of pay according experience. The average for top specialists in Germany is around ?120k. In the UK it is around ?140k. The top salary of a GP in Germany is ?78k and ?74K in the UK. So not paid significantly less or more really.

[malumbu]

Germany and German society is not quite as amazing as we often believe - social deprivation in particular the old East Germany, rise of the right, backlash against immigration/immigrants, not always a well oiled machine - some regulation is particularly clunky.

But yes, they had this one much more under control from the early days so loads to learn from the handling.

[Blah Blah]

A lot of that had also to do with their abundance of biotech facilities who began producing test kits immediately and in bulk. One small company alone was able to produce 1.4 million kits in just six weeks. This speed to mass testing was crucial in containment and slowing the rate of spread.

We are not without biotech facilities here either. Pharma is our second biggest export to the EU after motor vehicles for example. But for some reason, the UK government delayed before looking for that scaled up production of tests. The USA waited even longer. The outcomes speak for themselves.

[JohnL]

We had a minute of silence for those who died doing key roles today.

Well observed from what I could tell.

[TheCat]

Around 150 people are killed at work each year. Can we have some silence for them too?

[sjsl]

Well, back to the original post, I'm going to carry on clapping ? mostly showing solidarity and with everyone keeping at it, not just NHS... passing buses get an extra loud shout. But it's a choice, not bothered by people who don't.

[wordsworth]

sjsl Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Well, back to the original post, I'm going to

> carry on clapping ? mostly showing solidarity and

> with everyone keeping at it, not just NHS...

> passing buses get an extra loud shout. But it's a

> choice, not bothered by people who don't.

👏

[gabys1st]

Re NHS and funding, a large no.of Tory MPs ( dunno about the others) have "interest shares in private medicine!

[seenbeen]

gabys1st Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Re NHS and funding, a large no.of Tory MPs ( dunno

> about the others) have "interest shares in private

> medicine!

Very many private companies offer their staff private health care for themselves and their families...

The NHS is not squeaky clean either

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-6856745/One-five-NHS-organisations-hidden-deals-drug-companies.html

[Robbie]

I've been clapping, not just for NHS workers but for all the emergency services, transport workers and those within food production to name a few.

What does get me though, are the crowds that are gathering on the many Central London bridges, totally flouting the social distancing guidelines.

[Plough Man]

gabys1st Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Re NHS and funding, a large no.of Tory MPs ( dunno

> about the others) have "interest shares in private

> medicine!

Please provide the facts to back this up so we can understand better. A list of the MP's and their equity holdings would be greatly appreciated.

[Blah Blah]

Lots of evidence of that and more out there Plough Man ;)

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/selling-nhs-profit-full-list-4646154

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18255016.revealed-links-tory-mps-private-healthcare/

[malumbu]

I did a few searches on Matt Hancock and alleged inappropriate donations. Even reducing the number of words came up with one twitter, two Facebook and the nationalscot articles, not quite a Googlewhack - the latter source has a clear anti Westminster agenda. The donation is on his parliamentary register of interests. Just an example of fake or no news. Not a fan but if you want to dish the dirt do your homework first. Tories are often associated with business people, some of which will have interests in providing services to the public sector. I am sure politicians of other colours do too.

[JohnL]

Are people really going to put an app on their phones made by Palantir and Faculty. I usually tend to leave bluetooth disabled anyway.

https://bylinetimes.com/2020/04/22/palantir-coronavirus-contract-did-not-go-to-competitive-tender/

https://www.digitalhealth.net/2020/04/nhs-partners-with-tech-giants-to-develop-covid-19-data-platform/

https://www.economist.com/britain/2020/03/26/palantir-a-data-firm-loved-by-spooks-teams-up-with-britains-health-service

[diable rouge]

I'd be interested in getting a whereisboris app...

[JohnL]

diable rouge Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'd be interested in getting a whereisboris app...

Seeems a boris app is "Behavioral Observation Research Interactive Software"

Just what one might use for monitoring ... Boris.

[malumbu]

The app isn't out yet but Where's Boris is available in old school hardback

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wheres-Boris-Various/dp/1409153533

[Blah Blah]

I would use the app but for that to be of use needs enough people using it who keep their phones on. So I can see shortfalls in relying on that alone to contain a new rise in infection rates. We are going to need a range of approaches to reduce the risks imo. Testing and social distancing are still probably the best tools in the box.

[malumbu]

What's all this being told what to do on the bank holiday? All well and good to celebrate/commemorate VE day in our own way and collectively if we wish. I'm old enough to have close relatives on the home and battle front. We defeated fascism and Britain's role in this was massive. But worried that this could be hijacked by BJs soft nationalism and please don't link fighting Covid-19 with the second world war. As I've said before I believe that there should have better knowledge and awareness about WW2, but also how fascism played out in this country and how we came together to fight this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oswald_Mosley

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daily_Mail

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_VIII

I believe that it is patriotic not to always do as we are told (OK there are times when this has to be done including coronavirus). Right, rant over. Others?