Cemeteries now open except for services, Camberwell New on Sundays, others daily

[malumbu]

Come on Southwark, open your cemeteries. A nice walk has to be good for your immune system. Most of us are responsible people.

[ianr]

Do burials still take place in Nunhead Cemetery?

[FineWhine]

ianr Wrote:

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> Do burials still take place in Nunhead Cemetery?

Yup

[James Barber]

Public Health England has issued advice limiting attendees at funerals - https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-advice-for-safe-funerals-after-discussions-with-faith-leaders

While sympathising with people used to using cemeteries for leisure activities it would seem thoughtless to tell loved ones they can not attend a funeral and those that attend see others using cemeteries for leisure.

Welsh Govt candidly stated worst case large scales burials may be required. Perhaps another reason to make cemeteries invitation only for a period of time - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-51948055

Appalling all round.

[dbboy]

Southwark - all closed, except for funerals

Lewisham - all closed Mon - Fri, except for funerals, open at the weekend

Lambeth - "suggest you do not visit the cemetery or crematoria grounds during this time unless you are attending a funeral but if you do please observe social distancing and take any litter home with you."

A total lack of joined up thinking by boroughs, each operating different policies. Where's Sadiq when you need a decision?

Simply put Southwark's approach is, we can do what we want, when we want and how we want, even though we supposedly represent and work for you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[KidKruger]

James I thought the point of limiting nos at funerals was to avoid infections across attending crowds.

Groups walking in Nunhead would be cohabiting people, according to restrictions in place - as in any park or street in the land - therefore couples or families mainly.

Nunhead has no/extremely few spare plots, correct ?

So, for Nunhead, a calculation has been made that deaths requiring burial there would be relatives of those already buried there, right ?

That?s stretching it some, closing an entire cemetery on the off-chance that one of the few available or existing family plots will eventually have a death to allocate to it.

Why not open the cemetery, to close it for the morning / afternoon that a funeral (if one is required) is held ?

A funeral takes an hour tops, opening / locking gates takes 5mins.

Cemetery in Nunhead closed for weeks is completely unnecessary.

I?ve not yet seen an argument for closing Nunhead that seems reasonable or rational.

Sorry if I?ve missed something and I?m not being disrespectful to families of those with departed relatives (corona or otherwise).

[yorksgirl]

Having lived around the corner from Nunhead Cemetery for 26 years, I have always seen it mainly used by dog walkers.

The problem with people walking dogs at the moment, is that as soon as one dog is off the lead, it's going to mix with other dogs, and then the owners start mixing. They don't have much choice if they want to get their dog back. Even people who start out doing the 2 metre distancing then seem to forget rather quickly once they have started having a chat.

Even being in a cemetery doesn't seem to be enough to convince us that we are mortal.

I don't know the answer to this as many dogs will go bonkers if they are kept on leads for weeks on end.

[KidKruger]

My lurcher has been on lead for two years, he don?t like it but that?s the way it has to be.

He?s an ex-hunting dog so if he can deal with it, so can other dogs.

Not enough reason to close the cemetery IMO.

I?m not seeing dog walkers ignoring distancing there just cos their dogs are sniffing each other, quite the opposite from my daily experience there in fact.

[malumbu]

Simple solution. Put down all the dogs. That's a facetious comment borne of frustration so please don't go viral on this. Hope we can open some cemeteries in coming days.

[first mate]

KidKruger Wrote:

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> My lurcher has been on lead for two years, he

> don?t like it but that?s the way it has to be.

> He?s an ex-hunting dog so if he can deal with it,

> so can other dogs.

> Not enough reason to close the cemetery IMO.

>

> I?m not seeing dog walkers ignoring distancing

> there just cos their dogs are sniffing each other,

> quite the opposite from my daily experience there

> in fact.

Spot on. A great opportunity for owners to play with their dogs more at home and then outside home it is on lead exercise.

[benjief]

I have had an exchange with Southwark Council on twitter -

In essence, they say they relied on the regulations but they don't require the closure of burial grounds. Now they rely on advice from the ICCM and the Federation of Burial & Cremation Authorities and say they can't discuss it further on twitter. Might be worth dropping them a line on the comment/complaint section of the website.

[ianr]

Closure of Crematoria and Cemeteries

"The Ministry of Justice has confirmed that Section 5 (8) of the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) Regulations 2020 requires those responsible for crematoria to close them except for funerals. This requirement to close would also include a cemetery if the crematorium is situated in the cemetery, which could then only be open for burials. The regulation does not apply to other cemeteries, which can stay open.

.....

It is important to note that although cemeteries in England, Scotland and Wales are not required to be closed, they may be closed if they are being misused and health and safety are being put at risk."

-- from ICCM Covid-19 Newsletter 6 April 2020 (PDF file,176kB; link as found on https://www.iccm-uk.com/iccm/coronavirus/)

[rollflick]

ianr - that's not what the law actually says, as benjief correctly has pointed out.

Fundamental rules of statutory interpretation mean the regulation would need to state explicitly if cemeteries that include a crematorium have to be closed. It doesn't. As for the argument that the cemeteries need to be closed for grieving families, it is not an issue normally and in these extreme times first the public will be more deferential to mourners, second funerals are required to be much smaller. And in any event ever if the govt does update the law, only one of the closed cemeteries has a crematorium.

Again this is just Southwark making it up as it goes along, trying not to embarrass itself by acknowledging its error in wrongly sending out info claiming it was legally required to shut all its cemeteries.

COVID-19 is a crisis that will require many restrictions for many more months. That requires transparent, honest communication from public authorities to maintain public trust. It requires agility and proportionality not disappearing down into the safety of a silo if inconvenient facts emerge.

Unfortunately the culture in Southwark Council is stuck in the past and unfit for the complexities of the 21st century. If anything positive comes out of this crisis, let's hope the council will learn and change.

[JohnL]

Here's a council that has changed it's mind yesterday

https://thelincolnite.co.uk/2020/04/lincoln-council-closes-authority-run-cemeteries/

[KidKruger]

So, when does the cemetery open?

[Bunty comic]

Cemeteries have consecrated graves of people's loved one' s not primarily there for dogs and their owners!

[malumbu]

Is that why they are always so crowded with friends and relatives of the deceased? I expect most people nowadays if they choose to be buried will be happy that the space is used by others. Even better when they are nature reserves as well. We've always been happy to respect those visiting graves when we go to cemeteries.

[Bunty comic]

Cemeteries are for people's loved ones. There are enough open spaces in London for people to walk their dogs and I am a dog owner. The people that would wish to visit their loved ones graves over the Easter break are now unable to do so.

[KidKruger]

...unable to do so because Southwark Council unnecessarily closed Nunhead Cemetery and other cemeteries.

they weren't forced to, or driven to do that, they chose to - contrary to Govt advice.

because they wanted to.

[malumbu]

Hi Bunty, I suggest when the cemeteries are open you go along with a ssndwich board with this message. Burying bodies to me is archaic and you could argue selfish due to pressure on land space. I understand that there are still some faiths and cultures that want to do this, but for the vast majority we'd rather do things differently. Woodland burials are cool, but this could not be sustained for the masses. Most burial grounds are full of the remains of bodies long since forgotenn. That is the harsh fact.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Green

[KidKruger]

Yup, how many of the *260,000 corpses in Nunhead cemetery have a worshipper ?

*as advised to me by a member of FONC

[dbboy]

The Minster has just asked councils to re-open cemeteries

Government to publish guidance on funerals

Jenrick says he is asking councils to reopen cemeteries and graveyards so people can "seek solace" at the graves of those they loved, or lay flowers. "There are times in my life when I have needed to do that", he says, adding that small mercies can make a difference.

Jenrick also cites a case where mourners were turned away and says, "funerals can go ahead with close family present".

[JohnL]

?I?m also asking councils to keep open or indeed to reopen cemeteries and graveyards ... for people to make that private visit and seek solace at the grave of someone you?ve loved or to privately lay flowers."

Exercise not mentioned though.

[KidKruger]

At nunhead the majority of users are not visiting graves, it?s an old cemetery with most graves forgotten.

So how will that work.

[wordsworth]

Apart from the graves that aren't forgotten.