East Dulwich: new cyclists

[first mate]

Sally, what do you feel is the solution in terms of helping some members of society understand the importance of social distancing etc..or do you favour the herd immunity approach?

[malumbu]

This thread seems to have run its course. Sally, I and others will continue to cycle responsibly (and not together) as our daily exercise, whilst this is permitted. I'll continue to look to the positives, including how the majority of the country has responded, and expect the authorities to take soft and harder action to encourage others to behave themselves. I'll continue to be grateful that the same authorities have yet had to go down the way of France. There is a good thread for letting off steam at those not behaving themselves and/or encouraging greater isolation:

https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/list.php?20

Sadly BBC has stopped taking comments on relevant articles - these were wonderfully diverse, and at times highly offensive.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52181808?intlink_from_url=&

[first mate]

I?m not sure how helpful it is to infer that views that do not completely concur with your own are somehow not really valid and amount to no more than ?letting off steam?. Anyhow, so long as the majority continue to self-isolate and self-distance it is hoped we can end the current voluntary lockdown sooner rather than later.

[Sally Eva]

In the new world of lockdown, some people are thinking of beginning to cycle. There are many reasons why a person might want to cycle for the first time. If that's you, post here or DM me. I shall not inquire into your personal reasons. I shall try and help you.

Key workers (guidance here https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-maintaining-educational-provision/guidance-for-schools-colleges-and-local-authorities-on-maintaining-educational-provision can get free cycle training from cycle confident https://www.cycleconfident.com/

I belong to Southwark Cyclists who are the borough branch of the London Cycling Campaign. Our website is here [southwarkcyclists.org.uk]. Our email address is [email protected]. If we can assist you, just let us know.

[louisemurray]

Keep up the good work Sally.

[RobSE15]

Thank you Sally for your excellent work!

[Treehugger2]

Good work, Sally, thank you.

[Sally Eva]

Thank you my lovely ones. You've made an old woman very happy. Stay safe and look after yourselves (and other people)

[AntP2015]

Just fixed my puncture and going to go out for a ride (to the shops and to do some exercise). I have seen more people closer than two metres in shops, on paths and in parks than on the road cycling. Just be nice and don't be a t*&t then we'll all be okay.

[mako]

Ant your line of thinking seems to be 'it doesnt matter if some cyclists kills people by spreading the virus as people in shops will kill more people'. Whilst there are so few food delivery slots poeple have to still visit the shop. The virus cant move by itself-people move the virus. A cyclist can therefore spread the virus over a great distance. It is harder for pedestrians to avoid passing cyclists. And this report suggest 2m for cyclists isnt the correct distance-20m is.

https://medium.com/@jurgenthoelen/belgian-dutch-study-why-in-times-of-covid-19-you-can-not-walk-run-bike-close-to-each-other-a5df19c77d08

[Sally Eva]

https://www.bindmans.com/news/government-guidance-changed-to-permit-people-with-specific-health-needs-to-exercise-outside-more-than-once-a-day-and-to-travel-to-do-so-where-necessary

The medical guidance on exercise during lockdown has changed (see above) this won't affect everyone but it will be very important for those it does.

It now says:

You can leave your home for medical need. If you (or a person in your care) have a specific health condition that requires you to leave the home to maintain your health - including if that involves travel beyond your local area - then you can do so. This could, for example, include where individuals with learning disabilities or autism require specific exercise in an open space two or three times each day - ideally in line with a care plan agreed with a medical professional.

Lambeth Mental Health and Learning Disabilities Team (based at SLAM) are providing letters supportive of medical need. I don't know if Southwark has an equivalent. Follows threat of legal action. Any doctor will do (or none)

[malumbu]

AntP2015 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Just fixed my puncture and going to go out for a

> ride (to the shops and to do some exercise). I

> have seen more people closer than two metres in

> shops, on paths and in parks than on the road

> cycling. Just be nice and don't be a t*&t then

> we'll all be okay.

Hope you had a nice ride, It's a lovely day. I got the chance to talk to some police officers, at a reasonable distance, and one shared some hand sanitizer with me. Note: fellow cyclists, do take something to clean your hands with at start and end of journey hand if you stop for a rest (rest not sunbathe)

I think that this is the best line I've seen here for weeks: just be nice and don't be a t*&t then

> we'll all be okay

[mako]

It might be a 'nice line' but unfortunately it is not true. If being nice includes needlessly transmitting the virus (because the guidelines say I can even if the message is so clearly 'STAY AT HOME'}, then we certainly will not all be okay.

[exdulwicher]

mako Wrote:

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> It might be a 'nice line' but unfortunately it is

> not true. If being nice includes needlessly

> transmitting the virus (because the guidelines say

> I can even if the message is so clearly 'STAY AT

> HOME'}, then we certainly will not all be okay.

Firstly, the paper you linked to on the previous page - that's gone viral (sorry...) but its important to note that it's not a "study" or a peer-reviwed science paper or even a validated theory, it's all been done using some (admittedly quite nice) fluid dynamics models. There's a more detailed look at it here:

https://www.bicycling.com/news/a32097735/coronavirus-viral-simulation/

(I'm not saying it's not got some interesting ideas and obviously the further apart you stay from people the better but don't take it as gospel).

And the point of this thread was to help and encourage people new to cycle commuting - potentially key workers trying to get to/from work without using what is left of the public transport system - and it's been taken off topic several times including the standard and wholly unneccesary digs at "cycling/cyclists" in general. With the roads far quieter than normal and as a way of avoiding crowded pulic transport, cycling and walking are the best ways for key workers to get to and from their place of work at the moment, it's allowed by law and guidance so yeah, I'm going with the "be nice, don't be a ****" approach all round.

Just bear in mind that the rider you're seeing go up that hill is very unlikely to be someone out for 100 miles in the sunshine and far more likely to be a nurse or doctor or delivery driver going to or from their shift.

Great work with the info you've posted @Sally Eva

[mako]

Literally no-one on this thread has suggested that essential workers shouldnt be allowed to cycle, or even that people shouldn't cycle to do necessary shopping. But otherwise listen to every single NHS worker and they will all beg you to otherwise stay at home. Its really that simple. Please dont come back with 'I'm allowed' 'Others are worse''the science isnt 100% clear'. It is. Staying at home saves lives.

[Sally Eva]

Maybe we could agree on this:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-outbreak-faqs-what-you-can-and-cant-do/coronavirus-outbreak-faqs-what-you-can-and-cant-do

1. When am I allowed to leave the house?

You should only leave the house for very limited purposes:

shopping for basic necessities, for example food and medicine, which must be as infrequent as possible

one form of exercise a day, for example a run, walk, or cycle - alone or with members of your household

any medical need, including to donate blood, avoid or escape risk of injury or harm, or to provide care or to help a vulnerable person

travelling for work purposes, but only where you cannot work from home

[mako]

I agree that you are allowed out. Again not sure anyone is saying you are not legally allowed out.

Can you agree that pretty much every NHS worker and every daily briefing repeatedly says the same thing. Stay at home, save lives. Its really quite simple.

[exdulwicher]

I get the stay at home message, I agree with it.

BUT:

1) that's not the point of this thread - it's to help/advise/encourage/support people who are perhaps getting back into cycling or realising that it's an option to get to/from their key job. There are also millions of people out there with gym memberhips or who went to spin/dance classes, yoga, swimming or whatever who now don't have those options and need another form of exercise. There's a limit to how much you can jump up and down to Joe Wicks in your living room and it is recognised that exercise is vitally important for physical and mental health, boosts your immune system (important for fighting off infections) and so that's allowed, obviously under caveats like you're not driving off to Wales for a hill walk or cycling to Brighton and back.

2) shouting the stay at home message is beginning to lead to even further anxiety and it's actually led to some serious verbal assault on cyclists in Regent's Park from people who've decided that their interpretation of the rules is the one they will choose to enforce on everyone else.

https://wavelengthmag.com/corona-public-shaming/

That references the situation in Brockwell Park amongst others.

Yes, stay at home if you can. But if you're going out for one of the reasons listed then YES, that's allowed and hey, here's a great thread to help and support you in cycling that journey!

[malumbu]

Good article - extracting a couple of paras:

And there have been a few examples of behaviour that makes the heart sing. Like the inspiring stories of community efforts taking place in small towns up and down the country, or the fact that 750,000 people volunteered to help the NHS in just three days.

However, these stories have been dwarfed by the dramatic rise in public shaming brought on by the lockdown measures, driven in equal parts by the click hungry media and battalions of furious keyboard warriors.

[first mate]

The guidelines are blurred and pretty much leave things to the good judgement of individuals. Some people will be intensely relaxed about being 2 feet from people they don?t know, for others 13 feet may not be enough. People also have varying levels of anxiety motivated by totally different things. Additionally, govt advice is generic and population density is very different in the countryside to that of city living. I guess we?ll have a better idea of how we are doing in around two weeks time. The key thing is that the NHS does not become overwhelmed. Let us hope and pray the numbers start to come down and we can start to return to greater freedoms all round, sooner rather than later.

I don?t think there in any deliberate shaming or idle keyboard warrior activity going down and if there is I don?t think it applies in just one direction- I very much doubt views expressed on this forum have led directly to assaults on cyclists in Regent?s Park and it is unfair to conflate that behaviour with views expressed here. I do think there are very strong differences of opinion and we just need to accept that. Those who are themselves vulnerable or living with a vulnerable relative or working for the NHS, have good reason to find the sheer volume of people out and about extremely stressful. Especially the former, where every journey out of the home may feel hazardous and the lack of control because other people do not have the same perception and so behave differently, only adds to that anxiety.

I said from the start that it was absolutely right that key workers should be able to cycle or take other forms of transport- whatever helps them really. I also don?t have an issue with short cycle rides for exercise or longer ones in the early hours when the roads are clear, so long as loads of people don?t start doing it. Though well intentioned, I am not so sure about seeing this as an ideal time to encourage non- cyclists (other then key workers) to get on their bikes, only because one wonders about the logistics, but I doubt the council would support this unless it was sound.

[Occamsracer]

First mate, I know you're keen to get out on the bike but please just stay inside. It's that simple.

[first mate]

Not sure I understand your comment, though your name it is undoubtedly a clever play on the current debate.

[Occamsracer]

I dont Know what you mean. I'm just a normal 105 year old who needs to walk their 15 very well behaved dogs, dogue de Bordeaux, Newfoundland, English mastiff etc, three times a day. Where I live it's uphill both ways to the park so I have to drive my van there.

Yesterday I saw a young family, all on bikes which much have cost ?10k each, cycling along, laughing. I read on the internet that a single laugh can generate a viroid plume in excess of 100 square metres, thus this young family was blanketing most of the neighborhood in viruses. Very dangerous behaviour, should be stopped.

[fishbiscuits]

Of all the recent behaviour I've seen... people having picnics or sunbathing in the park, people popping out for a takeaway coffee or ice creams, garden parties and BBQs, groups of friends out together, people walking side by side and hogging the whole pavement, groups having drinkies in their front yard (less than 1m from the pavement), taking the bus when you could walk for 20-30 minutes. And according to this forum, runners bombing down Lordship Lane during shopping hours. Cycling doesn't seem like our biggest problem.

[Sally Eva]

This is not to do with cycling so I am continuing to derail my own thread but Jason Leitch, the national clinical director of Scotland, seems to have comms skills that no one in the UK government has.

This is him on the "three harms" the damage of coronavirus, the damage to everyone who has cancer, kidney failure and all other ills who may miss treatment and the damage inflicted by lockdown (mental health, economy, domestic violence)

It's the BBC Scotland "everything has a cost" video. The whole thing is interesting.