Advise for property purchase (subsidence in ED)

[benmorg]

edhistory Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> benmorg:

>

> I note you have not provided evidence to support

> your assertion(s).

>

> John K

And I note that when asked for a source, you avoid answering.

http://www.rics.org/site/download_feed.aspx?fileID=181&fileExtension=PDF

[edhistory]

benmorg:

Thank you for providing the link to the RICS consumer leaflet.

As Monkey wrote earlier don't use a surveyor, use an engineer.

This is the ICE consumer book:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Has-Your-House-Got-Cracks/dp/0727730894/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1345153002&sr=1-1

It is particulary useful for practical "subsidence" problems that people might encounter in East Dulwich. However as a consumer book it does use the umbrella term "subsidence" instead of the specific technical term. This is written from experience as I have a copy of the book.

Damage to buildings in East Dulwich referred to as "subsidence" is one of these:

War damage

Tree damage

Low quality construction including inappropriate subsequent modifications

Landslip/sheer/slump which might amount to heave (but only in a very small area of EasT Dulwich).

I have yet to see or hear of any instance of subsidence in East Dulwich.

You may wish to check more background, and sources I have previously provided, in this thread:

http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?5,686044,691410#msg-691410

John K

[benmorg]

edhistory Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> benmorg:

>

> Thank you for providing the link to the RICS

> consumer leaflet.

>

> As Monkey wrote earlier don't use a surveyor, use

> an engineer.

>

> This is the ICE consumer book:

> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Has-Your-House-Got-Cracks/

> dp/0727730894/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=13451

> 53002&sr=1-1

>

> It is particulary useful for practical

> "subsidence" problems that people might encounter

> in East Dulwich. However as a consumer book it

> does use the umbrella term "subsidence" instead of

> the specific technical term. This is written from

> experience as I have a copy of the book.

>

> Damage to buildings in East Dulwich referred to as

> "subsidence" is one of these:

>

> War damage

> Tree damage

> Low quality construction including inappropriate

> subsequent modifications

> Landslip/sheer/slump which might amount to heave

> (but only in a very small area of EasT Dulwich).

>

> I have yet to see or hear of any instance of

> subsidence in East Dulwich.

>

> You may wish to check more background, and sources

> I have previously provided, in this thread:

>

> http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?5

> ,686044,691410#msg-691410

>

> John K

Thanks. My brother trained in engineering and currently works as a loss adjuster specialising in subsidence claims, mainly in Ealing and other parts of West London. He has told me many times that the main cause of subsidence in London is clay shrinkage, caused by trees. His own house has exactly that problem and he has made an insurance claim to cover repairs, though underpinning was not necessary. I trust his opinion and that of RICS more than yours.

[edhistory]

Benmorg:

Your brother will be aware that the geology of Ealing and other parts of West London is different to that of the East Dulwich and Nunhead Valley.

Have a chat with him.

John K

[Andyng]

Can anyone recommend a reliable local structural engineer so I can establish whether subsidence is progressive?

Any idea how much this would cost?

Kind Regards

Andrew

[alice]

macdonald parsons on worlingham road

[fazer71]

That may be a waste of money you'll end up with an expensive report which will give no guaranteed information only state the obvious.

Subsidence requires monitoring so there is no way an engineer can tell you if it's ongoing unless it's monitored over several years.

What a lot of people miss is after trees, drainage is the second biggest reason for subsidence old clay pipes spring leaks and the ground goes through a wet and dry cycle depending on rain duration etc so undermining the foundations very common on victorian houses once the leaks are fixed the movement stops.

It wouldn?t be uncommon to find a house has been underpinned and the cause is not fixed it takes many years for the problems to appear in the walls.

This is what happened at my parents house.

[shell]

There are loads of buildings on goose green suffering from subsidence ( as a resident of one of them I wish it wasn't the case )

[edhistory]

shell:

What sort of "subsidence" do you have?

Is it war damage?

John K

[jacksiex]

If the property was under pinned is will be stronger than before BUT getting it insured will be a nightmare?

Then when you come to sell it in the future you will have to sell it well under the market price???? plus the insurance companies will cream you from now until kingdom come??????????? I know just sold mine to a developer who intends to knock ours down???

[fazer71]

Exatly it's an insurance scam nothing to do with it being worst that other houses it'll be better but the insurance companies use it to milk the premiums.

It's Insurance company daylight robbery.

[edhistory]

That's about it.

Careless talk about "subsidence" increases insurance premiums.

John K

[shell]

Hi John,

After all the tests and monitoring we are told its from the trees on goose green ..

[Toulouse]

Hi

Subsidence is rife in this area- london clay soil, hills etc. i know as we bought a ground floor flat in the area that had been underpinned. You are better off buying one that has been underpinned than one that hasn't as it costs a fortune: ours was done by the council in the 1990s for ?84k and that was just the front of the property.

good luck

[edhistory]

Shell:

Thank you for the information.

I am sorry to hear that your property has suffered tree damage.

Toulouse:

A few questions:

a] how do you know "subsidence" is "rife" in "this area"?

b] what is "this area"?

c] where is the "londonh clay soil"?

d] where is your flat?

e] why did it need underpinning?

John K

[bobby's bear]

We just got insurance for a house that was underpinned because of 'subsidence' which the surveyor thought was bomb damage!

After following some advice from previous threads on here we got it sorted in the end.

As the previous insurence on our house was a rental insurance we couldn't just follow on from the previous owner. It took a bit of hassle and stress but in the end we got a good few reasonable offers.

You need to avoid the "retail" and internet only insurers as they don't have the business model to handle any complications. Phone the bigger specialist insurers such as Aviva (there were loads of others of house-hold names but for some reason I can't remember them at the moment) and any brokerage (Adrian Flux, Towergate, Horner Blakey). Basically any firm that uses the Lloyds market. I know that sounds complicated but its not, it just isn't the log on and answer a handful of questions to get insurance that I had become used to.

Funnily enough, a few of the companies we phoned could describe the house and even prompted us on subsidence as they said this part of south London has loads of historic movement from WW2 and from the clay soil as people have mentioned, so where not phased at all. Actually the biggest issue, once we knew who we to talk to, was that a few companies turned us down because they were overloaded in this area and they have limits in how many houses they will take in one area at a time (in case of a disaster, they explained). That and the fact that our house needs new guttering. The gutter was a bigger issue for them than subsidence!

Good luck.

[Toulouse]

Hi

I don't know if it was tree damage that caused it but i doubt it but we are at the bottom of a hill. Our structural engineer told us: Camberwell Dulwich areas area largely LONDON clay soil, combined with hills and there is a lot of subsidence in the area as a result. The flat was underpinned before we moved in and the council did it- there was little information provided to us by them about why- but the clues from reports told us that cracks consistent with subsidence would have lead to them doing it. Since the work was done no cracks have reappeared so we are glad that it was done. The council insure our property structurally as part of the service charge. We have not had a problem with contents insurance.

Toulouse

[edhistory]

As bobby's bear has said there is a fair amount of war damage to property in our valley.

The three main causes I know are:

a) air shock-waves

b) flying debris

c) underground shock-waves

I understand how when one sees a crooked or repaired house one might mistake the war damage for subsidence.

I'm pretty sure that if one walks into an estate agent to enquire about a property the agent does not bring out a copy of the local bomb damage map and say "I thought you might be interested to see the nearest bomb/V1/V2 impact to this property".

John K

[benmorg]

Most of the subsidence in ED and the rest of London is caused by trees drawing moisture from clay soil. Underpinning usually isn't necessary - removing or pruning the tree is often enough the limit movement. Lots of info on the subject here:

http://www.bre.co.uk/filelibrary/pdf/projects/HortLink_Project_Final_Report_(2004).pdf

[fazer71]

Toulouse Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Hi

>

> Subsidence is rife in this area- london clay soil,

> hills etc. i know as we bought a ground floor flat

> in the area that had been underpinned. You are

> better off buying one that has been underpinned

> than one that hasn't as it costs a fortune: ours

> was done by the council in the 1990s for ?84k and

> that was just the front of the property.

>

>

> good luck

?84,000 !!!!

Sounds like a council job!

We tax payers fot the bill and end up paying a mental price.....

I doubt the front of your place was 84 cubic metres.

But anything is possible if the council are paying for it.

My folks were quoted ?1,000 per cubic metre early 2008.

A regular victorian house front is 5-6 metres so underpinning 1 metre down (which is usually all that's required) is ?6,000 even if it was 2 metres it would be a max of ?12,000.

Often it's only the bay which is a problem and that's 3 metres or ?3,000.

[edhistory]

Just a brief thought...

I've been wondering if those who have destroyed their front gardens by putting in hard standing for car parking will damage their properties in the same way as a rogue tree.

John K

[fazer71]

edhistory Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Just a brief thought...

>

> I've been wondering if those who have destroyed

> their front gardens by putting in hard standing

> for car parking will damage their properties in

> the same way as a rogue tree.

>

1bln% NO.

[Penguin68]

I've been wondering if those who have destroyed their front gardens by putting in hard standing for car parking will damage their properties in the same way as a rogue tree.

As long as the hard-standing is porous (such as bricks laid over sand or gravel) then the amount of water entering the ground should be similar and it should have no discernable difference. It is only where the entire front garden is hard paved on concrete or tarmaced that you may get run-off which will (eventually) tend to dry out the land under the front garden, although it also depends where the run-off will go. Remember that water travels sideways (and up) as well as down, so that unless the whole street is paved over if there is enough rain your area will still be damp even if rainwater isn't passing directly through your front garden. And if there is a drought it doesn't matter if your have paved over your front garden, as there will be no rain to permeate anyway!

And removing trees can also cause movement - where more ground water is released (not taken up by the tree) so making the sub-soil wetter!