Debate on Prostitution at 11pm Tues 5th Feb on ITV1

[Asset]

I was under the impression that rules were being relaxed regarding prostition currently. I read that the law was to be changed to allow women to work in a house together i.e. a brothel, rather than alone as is all that is currently allowed under the law. Prostitution is not illegal. Soliciting and streetwalking is.

Good luck on the program tonight, I'll try and stay up to watch it.

[Keef]

I'm sorry, but "Your mum" will never get tired! Chav has now got a day job, so I'm not quite getting you. You obviously find chav and her attitudes to certain things distastefull, which is fair enough, each to their own I say. Why don't you do the same, and just ignore chav's posts and take part in other bits of the forum.

[KalamityKel]

Well said Keef :)) :)-D

[LizzygotDizzy]

Not to get stuck in the middle here, but in a way he kind of does have a point, what about the kids? How do they feel about it all? I bet they get no choice in how their mum portrays herself on national tv in front of all their friends, kids are cruel at the best of times and its them who have to deal with it and all the backlash, not the extremely outspoken and honest Chav, I think perhaps just a tad too honest sometimes. Sorry. (takes cover!)

[mlteenie]

Is it a mass debate?

[Domitianus]

Maximay Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ChavWivaLawDegree Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Maximay, I think you have gor me mixed up with

> > your mum.

> >

> > Nice one. Great advice guys. I'm gona go have

> a

> > bath, try to relax and try to stop my stomach

> > flipping up and down for a bit!!!

> >

> > If anyone gets a chance I'd love a copy!

>

>

> I think the mum joke went out about 3 years ago.

> Not difficult to do the research, been on Kilroy

> boasting, been on Soho Stories, been on British

> sex, please feel free to check up on the internet,

> wasn't that hard to find it all, go on prove me

> wrong then if I'm talking Crap, and thats even

> before mentioning the newspapers!

I guess the danger to CWALD's kids in this situation would be from criticism or harassment from people like you. If you are concerned about CWALD's kids then ensure that you don't bring them into it. It has always struck me as rather strange this type of attitude - "I disapprove of what you do because it affects your kids. How does it affect your kids? Well, it affects your kids because people like me will give your kids grief because of what you do!"

I suspect that CWALD is pointing out that, despite society's historic hostility to prostitution (stemming from irrational sex-negative and misogynistic prejudices as old as mankind) prostitution nonetheless is a profession that can often allow a woman control of what she does and allow her to have real financial freedom. These elements of control and financial reward are ones that are traditionally admired in our society and I doubt if you would object to any other professional alluding to them when talking of their work. They are also elements that are woefully absent in other more 'respectable' occupations which could be said to repress and control women much more than prostitution does (low-paid check-out work, hair-dressing, delivering leaflets to name but a few). The main thing that prevents prostitutes more widely achieving these standards is punitive legislation and social stigmatisation. I suspect that type of obstruction is what CWALD is challenging.

[Michael Palaeologus]

Well said Domitianus.

[chuff]

Good luck chav, will be watching

chuff (lady chuff)

[RosieH]

Domitianus Wrote:

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... prostitution nonetheless is a profession that can often allow a woman control of what she does and allow her to have real financial freedom... The main thing that prevents prostitutes more widely achieving these standards is punitive legislation and social stigmatisation.

really??? tell that to any of the estimated 10,000 women trafficked to this country and living in slavery, that it's only nimbyism stopping them achieving real financial freedom. while they're beaten, raped and forced to have sex with strangers 20, 30 times a day, have their passport taken away, and make not a penny, except for the rich c*nt who shipped them over here.

Chav may well have had an overwhelmingly positive, empowering, experience, and I applaud her for that: if it allowed her to take control of her life then brilliant. But it's very very far from being the case for every woman (increased likelihood of addiction, rape, violence, murder anyone?)

Domitianus, your comment about hair dressers or leaflet handlers beggars belief and is pretty insulting.

[RosieH]

and meant to say, good luck Chav! good to hear all sides of the debate

[Mscrawthew]

Good luck for tonight Chav, I`m sure your girls will be as proud as they always are of their Mum, Go get em girl!>:D

[Domitianus]

RosieH Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Domitianus Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> ... prostitution nonetheless is a profession that

> can often allow a woman control of what she does

> and allow her to have real financial freedom...

> The main thing that prevents prostitutes more

> widely achieving these standards is punitive

> legislation and social stigmatisation.

>

> really??? tell that to any of the estimated 10,000

> women trafficked to this country and living in

> slavery, that it's only nimbyism stopping them

> achieving real financial freedom. while they're

> beaten, raped and forced to have sex with

> strangers 20, 30 times a day, have their passport

> taken away, and make not a penny, except for the

> rich c*nt who shipped them over here.

>

> Chav may well have had an overwhelmingly positive,

> empowering, experience, and I applaud her for

> that: if it allowed her to take control of her

> life then brilliant. But it's very very far from

> being the case for every woman (increased

> likelihood of addiction, rape, violence, murder

> anyone?)

>

> Domitianus, your comment about hair dressers or

> leaflet handlers beggars belief and is pretty

> insulting.

I think it is your naivety that is insulting. Of course there are situations such as you describe, just as there are people in the third world making trainers for those in the UK who are living in similar conditions in sweatshops. Does this mean that ALL people working in the rag-trade live and work in such conditions? No, of course not! There was a time in industrial history when people in factories worked in utterly APPALLING conditions. Was this because factory work was intrinsically dangerous and exploitative? No, of course not. It was because of society's ATTITUDES to factory workers that had to be changed before authentic reform could take place. There seems to be an inability by some people to determine whether poor conditions and exploitation are INTRINSIC to a profession, because of its very nature, and which poor conditions are generated because we criminalise that profession and effectively encourage criminal elements to take it over who will generate exactly the sort of conditions you rightly despise. The point I was making, which I would have hoped was obvious, is that these conditions prevail in SOME areas of prostitution PRECISELY BECAUSE it is currently on the fringe of legality. It therefore attracts shady individuals who are fond of violence, exploitation and intimidation and prevents those within the profession from improving their lot by taking charge of their own labour, organising and having confidence that they can contact the forces of law and order without being persecuted themselves. The way to improve conditions is NOT to criminalise prostitution further or continue to drive it underground (where such appalling practices can flourish) but to bring it more fully into society where it can be regulated, supervised and where the potentially most vulnerable people within it know that they have access to the protection of the law.

Look at alcohol. Most of us would prolly say that, whatever problems people may associate with alcohol, its legal status means it is a fairly respectable, open and well-regulated industry with decent working conditions for those who make and serve it. Prohibition in America made alcohol illegal and ACTIVELY CREATED the very conditions of criminality, exploitation, violence and abuse that you now cite as being prevalent amongst prostitution.

I believe CWALD is showing that it is possible, by empowering prostitutes rather than condemning them, for prostitution to exist in a much more healthy, non-exploitative manner with women taking control of their own destiny if they wish to work in that profession. The scenario of prostitution you describe is the consequence of our historic way of condemning and marginalising prostitution (even worse 'rescuing' prostitutes against their will), it is NOT an inevitable consequence of prostitution any more than sweatshops are an inevitable consequence of clothing manufacturing, but I fear it will be as long as people take the sort of position (however well meaning) that you do.

As for hairdressers, check out girls etc, I am not sure what you find quite so offensive (are you a hairdresser, perhaps?) These are professions in which often young women are paid pitiful wages to work very long hours in extremely demanding conditions with very little appreciation for what they do. By contrast, some prostitutes who have been able to take control of their business are able to earn significant sums of money, work in comparatively comfortable environments and work when they like. A call girl in those circumstances could make more in a night that a hairdresser makes in a week I suspect that there are plenty of hairdressers, checkout girls etc who feel a lot more exploited and downtrodden than a lot of prostitutes.

A real life example, a work colleague of mine went to the Spearmint Rhino once and became friendly with one of the girls there (pole-dancing is not quite the same but not a million miles off). Through him I subsequently discovered that this girl dancing a handful of nights a week and was making over ?100 K a year!!!! Who was being exploited there? I guarantee you that if you criminalised pole-dancing, criminal elements would immediately move in to run them and the girls there would end up in exactly the sort of disgraceful conditions that RH complains of.

[Domitianus]

Another real-life example comes to mind. I am vaguely acquainted with a girl who makes porn movies, a very attractive and pleasant young lady indeed. Her previous job - she was a financial advisor (pretty d**n respectable, huh?) When I have spoken to her about her career change she has told me that the job in which she felt harassed, exploited and manipulated was her FP job. She still remembers what she had to put up with there (often with little prospect of financial reward) with considerable anger. In her current work, she earns about ?300 a scene, doing something she pretty much enjoys doing and she does it when she wants to and with who she wants to. The hilarity with which she greets the notion that she is being exploited is something to behold. On the contrary she feels she has more control over her life and body than she ever did and would not change what she does for the world.

[Domitianus]

Tell you what, let's ban cockle-picking and strawberry picking as well. After all, there are hundreds of people smuggled into the country who are involved in those industries as well, and who are living in cramped conditions and working for a pittance and who have their passports confiscated and who are threatened with violence as well (them and their families back home) and the female members of which are prolly sexually molested from time to time just for good measure. And if the worst comes to the worst, they send you out into Morecombe Bay at night where there is a good chance you will drown. If that isn't a good reason for banning (or at least marginalising) cockle-picking I don't know what is! Of course, it's obvious, banning cockle-picking would be the very way to prevent that type of exploitation!!!!

[Michael Palaeologus]

Dander up I thnk.

To claim that all Prostitutes are enslaved and that criminalising all in involved in Prostitution will emancipate said slaves is innacurate and niaive.

By banning the pea growing industry do you solve the problem of trafficed people being enslaved as pickers in East Anglia? I think not.

Leave morality out of this - nobody has the right to tell somebody else what they can and cant do with their bodies - whether that be an Albanian pimp or a moralising politician.

We have legislation against slavery that should theoretically stamp out people trafficing - what it needs is the investment in resources to make it happen.

At the moment a large percentage of the sex industry is run quite openly and within the current law - search "Escorts" in Google - cutting out that which refers to Ford motorcars.

Criminalising all aspects of Prostitution will simply drive the whole industry underground and I suggest that we dont have the resources to police the current situation - trying to police the whole thing will mean that far more trafficed people will actually get through an overstressed police net. The situation will simply get worse not better.

[LizzygotDizzy]

But I'm sorry, all is not as rosy a picture as Chav and whoever else has painted, prositution may be a chosen profession for a lot of women, and they may feel they are empowered, in control or whatever, but it is damaging to them too, and often drugs usage/abuse run hand in hand with it too, (lots of prostitutes become hooked on hard drugs during these times) even Chav admitted to being a heroin addict, but I don't know if she was on the drugs first then turned to prostitution as a way of funding it, or was she a prostitute then takin drugs to make everything hazier and easier to deal with? That doesn't sound so empowering and enlightening to me, nor glamourous. I am also not saying that every hooker is a druggie either, but the two do seem to run hand in hand for a lot of people who chose this way of life. Not to mention the psychological and emotional problems it all causes in later life.

[SteveT]

I think Chav that I have already voiced my opinion on prostitution to you in the past and felt that being a lawyer and/or a politician was a much 'dirtier profession' than the oldest profession. Best of luck and if you mention the chickens dont mention the cock!

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

Sorry it's not on tonight. They recored 2 episodes, and the one I was on is next week Tuesday at 11pm.

Dom - come and join me at the next debate!!!

[SeanMacGabhann]

first of all I think most people have posted some excellent points on here on what is a contentious (for some) topic

I don't even have much to add apart from echoing the sex-slave/enforced prostitution shouldn't be confused with other women who do it without any more distaste than those of us who work for "the man"

Focus on the crime (ie criminal and violent coercion) and not the non-crime - exchange of money for sex

(for the sake of teh above argument - crime = A Bad Thing. I don't mean crime as in what is currently on the statute)

SECONDLY - I feckin came home early to tape this!!!! Only to find it's not even on! CWALD - next time I see you .... ;-)

Thirdly - (sniiip)

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

Woops many appologies Mr McG!!

I will give a fuller report on why I think the current suggestion in the Criminal Justice Bill, of criminalising clients and forcing women caught soliciting to undergo counselling sessions or go to jail, is wrong when I get some time, but it's all to do with not acehiveing the stated aims, ie reduce traficking and violence to prostitute women and being based on bogus research buy fundamentalist so called feminists who catagorise all prostitute women as victims in need of saving therefore perpetuating the mysoginistic infantalisation of women instead of addressing the causes or asking what the prostitutes themselves actually want!

Sorry spelling up the spout because I am very tired.

[MadWorld74]

Why are peple always apolgising and saying sorry for speaking their minds on this forum? I'm sick of it. Say what you feel and don't be 'sorry'!

[RosieH]

Whoa, I don't recall saying all prostitutes are sex slaves - I said that everything is far from the rosy picture painted on this thread. Neither did I call for a ban on prostitution.

I'm not na?ve about this - my concern is for women. If criminalising the purchase of sex makes them safer, great. If legalising prostitution makes women safer, also great.I think the point is that we don't know and we're trying to work it out, but refusing to acknowledge the situation in the round isn't going to help come to an informed decision.

Research can be used to show what you want it to - Chav, would be really interested to see any you have. I genuinely want to be well-informed on this. All the research I've seen to date shows that ALL prostitutes (not just those trafficked) are at higher risk of class A drug addiction (about 75 percent of prostitutes in studies I've read are addicted to heroin or crack) and at much higher risk of violence. I'm going from data from the Home Office and from the Fawcett Society, and if there are more studies out there that tell the other side of the story then I'd love to see them.

Like I say, my concern's for women. Dom, I don't doubt for a second the validity of your friends' experiences, but as has been discussed elsewhere on the forum, one good experience doesn't tell the entire story. And I'm not a hairdresser - my hairdresser probably earns a hell of a lot more than me given the amount she charges.

(With apologies for typos but none for opinions - on the crackberry)

[KalamityKel]

Tis amazing how it seems ONLY women are prostitutes these days... *sighs* assumption is a terrible fault in a person :P

[RosieH]

Good point kk - never meant to imply otherwise but the thread had been talking about women and I followed the shorthand (assume therefore that the terrible fault lies with all posters and not just me..?)

Wrist slapped

I should of course point out that I care deeply also for the minority of prostitutes who are men. And for my personal experience, I have known two men who worked as prostitutes for a time. Both thought it would be empowering, neither found it to be so: one became depressed and turned to drugs; the other quit and went on to have a brilliant career in the film industry. Two sides...

(edited because I got out of bed in a proper narky mood this morning and no one needs to see that)

[mightyroar]

I agree RosieH.

One personal experience does not make a trend.

Like Dom I know a couple of people (one male one female) in the porn industry, and their tales are sad and depressing. Basically what's required is younger, faster, harder, more. Their experiences have led me to believe that making porn is a truly nasty business.

As for prostitution I do think we need more evidence.

Women (or men) working in a safe, inside environment controlled by them is one (rare) thing.

But women on street corners at night cannot be described as making an informed choice about an empowering career.