Secondary school results in E.D for 2020

[Katiesa]

Hi, I will be applying this October for my sons 2021 secondary school place & would be interested to know this years catchment stretch. We live near the library top end of Lordship lane & are currently not in catchment for either Charter school. Has anyone who lives this end of E.D found out today if they've got into either.

Many thanks in advance.

[sunbob]

Someone I know, so not first hand experience:

They got into neither. Are half the distance to East Charter than where you describe yourself living, but a third further away from North Charter than you.

[Katiesa]

Thank you for letting me know...so potentially ED charter haven't extended their catchment at all. Would anyone know when is best to call the schools to ask what the furthest distance ended up being?

[goldilocks]

Is there really any point in knowing what the initial distance offered was? There is always so much change you're better off asking in September really to understand whether its worth attending an open day.

I think that its clear that if you asked now you'd be told you're not in the area where places were offered, but its impossible to know whether this would be true later in the year. Maybe ask just before summer holidays and then again in September?

[slimjim]

I can tell you that although we are not in the same part of Dulwich as you we are just a hair over 1km away from Charter East Dulwich. We didn't get a place and we are mid forties on the waiting list, so I doubt we will. It looks like the furthest offered distance is shrinking year on year as more siblings take up places.

[Katiesa]

I find this whole catchment thing ridiculous. Thanks for letting me know. I've managed to find an as the crow flys app & measured the distance for both East and North charter. We are 1.12km to e.d and 1.09km to N.D

[Soylent Green]

As the crow flies is not the same as walking distance which the schools use.

[Katiesa]

Oh I thought it was crows fly distance. How do you calculate the walking distance?

[Shaggy]

Most of the schools use 'as the crow flies', *not* walking.

It is true that some of them, for example Charter North, used to use a 'safe walk to school' measure, but now it uses straight line distance from a nodal point.

All the schools that I have looked at over the last three years used the straight line from the nodal point measure.

It is worth noting that the nodal points can change, and are not always obvious. Harris East Dulwich, for example, moved its nodal point about 100m towards Nunhead for 2020 entry, and Charter North also recently fiddled with theirs.

[hellosailor]

It?s as the crow flies yes.

I believe one of the main reasons that we?re in this ludicrous secondary school situation in ED is that when Haberdashers Asks bid for the contract of the new school on the hospital site, they pledged to make their nodal point further up LL near the location of what is now Harris primary. This being highly pertinent because it?s the roads north of LL up past Barry road that are in a black hole and desperately needed provision. My understanding is that when Charter put in a rival bid they made the same pledge if they were to win the contract and having secured it immediately went back on their promise and made the nodal point their entrance, thus shafting the scores of families living in the secondary black hole and creating a catchment that hugely overlaps with Charter North. How fortunate to live on one of those roads who now get to choose which Charter tickles their fancy rather than my road where my children may well be offered a school we don?t want several km away. Appalling.

[Ole]

The school admissions system is nuts. We are about 800m from east charter, our nearest school, and children on our street did not get in. Our second nearest is north dulwich and that?s a definite no, not even after the September shake-uk. Harris boys is a mystery whether we would get in or no, it seems to be pot luck. I don?t understand why the catchments are shrinking so much so quickly. Just a few years ago we would have got into north dulwich and there hasn?t been any significant build locally. Ditto with east dulwich. When the hamlet estate is built on greendale that?s going to shrink east dulwich even more but I understand that because it is new housing.

And why does Southwark have 4 girls? school and only 2 boys? school?

Renata, any thoughts on that?

[Coach Beth]

It's partly due to the buldge classes that have been moving up and through to secondary school level - it will be over in a year or two I believe? If you look at the primary schools, those that took on extra buldge classes several years ago have reverted back to normal and many local schools are now undersubscribed - partly due to new primary schools being built such as Harris Primary on Lordship Lane, the Belham and the extension on Ivydale - part of the argue for these schools was the oversubscription and buldge classes.

[KatieJ]

I have a child at ED charter (year 8). The year that she started reception must have been an incredibly high birthrate as I think (maybe Renata can clarify) there were 3 bulge classes across ED that year (birth year of 06/07). I don't think there was a huge issue with getting places at ED Charter in their year of admission as it was still off site, a new school and a bit more of an unknown school so not as popular. However 2 years between children is pretty common so I wonder if that has more of an impact this year on admissions.

[Shaggy]

hellosailor Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It?s as the crow flies yes.

> I believe one of the main reasons that we?re in

> this ludicrous secondary school situation in ED is

> that when Haberdashers Asks bid for the contract

> of the new school on the hospital site, they

> pledged to make their nodal point further up LL

> near the location of what is now Harris primary.

> This being highly pertinent because it?s the roads

> north of LL up past Barry road that are in a black

> hole and desperately needed provision. My

> understanding is that when Charter put in a rival

> bid they made the same pledge if they were to win

> the contract and having secured it immediately

> went back on their promise and made the nodal

> point their entrance, thus shafting the scores of

> families living in the secondary black hole and

> creating a catchment that hugely overlaps with

> Charter North. How fortunate to live on one of

> those roads who now get to choose which Charter

> tickles their fancy rather than my road where my

> children may well be offered a school we don?t

> want several km away. Appalling.

It is with also mentioning that the Charters are now trying to gerrymander sixth form entry by giving Charter N priority at Charter E, and vice versa. Although many of us have just got through secondary allocation, sixth form will come round all to quickly.

[Caroline_S]

I think the lack of primary bulge classes in recent years is because there are now two new primary schools providing 120 extra places in the system, rather than fewer kids. So I can?t imagine demand for secondary places reducing in the next couple of years.

Can I ask though, while there is a lot of talk about catchments for the Charters being tiny, are local kids getting places at Harris Boys? This will be my preferred choice in a year?s time but has the catchment there gone micro too? We are just off Peckham Rye, north of Barry Road, so the dreaded ?black hole? area of ED that was alluded to in an earlier post.

[INMCD]

Hi. My son's in Year 7 at Harris Boys. We live just by Nunhead Cemetary and he got in last year on 1 March. Quite a few boys from that part of SE15/SE22 are in his year. We're so glad he got in - he loves it. We're very happy.

[Caroline_S]

Thank-you, that?s very reassuring and great to hear you and your son are so happy with it.

[Renata Hamvas]

Ole, it is not pot luck with Harris Boys. Harris Boys and Girls both use a banding system in combination with distance. If you have more siblings or SEN in one band (a)compared to another (b), this will influence the last place offered distance for the two bands, band a likely to have a smaller last place distance offer than band b. In general more parents seem to favour single sex schools for daughters than sons. There has been evidence in the past that girls do slightly better academically in single sex schools and boys in mixed. In general in Southwark's mixed schools you do tend to have more boys than girls (there may be cultural influences coming into play too). Forest Hill Boys is very close to the boundary with Southwark and is certainly an option for local parents of boys as well as Harris Boys and St Thomas the Apostle.

Katie, The highest number of applicants for secondary was in 2019, current year 7 and very close behind was this year, both years there were around 3,000 applicants. 2018 had slightly fewer applicants. Beth, you are correct, there are fewer 4 year olds than a few years ago. Renata

[Ole]

Renata, I'm attaching a screenshot from this document from 2018 (http://moderngov.southwark.gov.uk/documents/s78194/Report%20Pupil%20Place%20Planning.pdf) which shows that Charter, has a 21% rate of chidren from outside Southwark. This is significantly higher than other Southwark schools (what is the percentage for 2019? Has it gone up or down? I couldn't find it).

People move into the area from outside Southwark and then move out and then their siblings get in. Southwark dooes not have access to council tax records from other boroughs so easy from somebody from outside to rent locally for a few months and then move out again. Sourthwark residents can't bend the rules by moving in closer to the school (and then going back 'home') because we would get caught out. However people from outside Southwark are clearly doing this, meaning Charter is not really a school for local kids.

Is Southwark going to do anything to addess this problem?

Charter is my nearest school yet I won't get a place, however somebody who now lives in Clapham will do.

(for the record, I have no problem with the policy of siblings getting in - my problem is for the policy siblings of people who now no longer live in Southwark having priority over local children)

I've circled Harris Boys too but I can understand that because it is fairly close to other boroughs, but Charter couldn't be more central.

Kingsdale, with an outside proportion of 59% from outside Southwark, where do we even begin? Let's just leave it at that shall we.

Wouldn't a much fairer systme be:

1. looked after, etc

2. Siblings of children who live in Southwark

3. Children who live in Southwark

4. Siblings of children who no longer live in Southwark.

Or something like that?

And why can't councils share council tax records so that renting temporarily to be near a school whilst being a homeowner elsewhere can be stamped out (not completely I get it, but at least pretend to do something about it?).

[Ole]

And in case anybody points out - the Catholic schools also have a high rate of out of borough admissions because they prioritise church-going people so I'm just comparing the rates between non-religious schools.

[BellendenBear]

Presumably The Charter School refers to Charter North Dulwich rather than East Dulwich? Lots of kids from Lambeth will go to Charter ND such as those living just the other side of Denmark Hill.

I?m sure lots of people move away after getting their eldest child into secondary school and then subsequent siblings get places. I agree that this doesn?t seem fair, but I don?t think making things borough based is possible or makes sense due to the impact it would have on people living close to the borders. Wouldn?t it be better to say that the sibling rule no longer applies if you live at an address that is further from the school than when the eldest was admitted? Southwark don?t have control over this anyway as all our schools are academies or free schools.

Having just gone through this process, I would encourage people to visit lots of schools. There are lots of other good schools and some very impressive head teachers around.

[Ole]

BellendenBear Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Presumably The Charter School refers to Charter

> North Dulwich rather than East Dulwich? Lots of

> kids from Lambeth will go to Charter ND such as

> those living just the other side of Denmark Hill.

>

> I?m sure lots of people move away after getting

> their eldest child into secondary school and then

> subsequent siblings get places. I agree that this

> doesn?t seem fair, but I don?t think making things

> borough based is possible or makes sense due to

> the impact it would have on people living close to

> the borders. Wouldn?t it be better to say that the

> sibling rule no longer applies if you live at an

> address that is further from the school than when

> the eldest was admitted? Southwark don?t have

> control over this anyway as all our schools are

> academies or free schools.

>

> Having just gone through this process, I would

> encourage people to visit lots of schools. There

> are lots of other good schools and some very

> impressive head teachers around.

I know people who live barely 700m on the Lambeth side of North Charter who did not get a place this year.

[Soylent Green]

Ole Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Renata, I'm attaching a screenshot from this

> document from 2018

> (http://moderngov.southwark.gov.uk/documents/s7819

> 4/Report%20Pupil%20Place%20Planning.pdf) which

> shows that Charter, has a 21% rate of chidren from

> outside Southwark. This is significantly higher

> than other Southwark schools (what is the

> percentage for 2019? Has it gone up or down? I

> couldn't find it).

>

> People move into the area from outside Southwark

> and then move out and then their siblings get in.

> Southwark dooes not have access to council tax

> records from other boroughs so easy from somebody

> from outside to rent locally for a few months and

> then move out again. Sourthwark residents can't

> bend the rules by moving in closer to the school

> (and then going back 'home') because we would get

> caught out. However people from outside Southwark

> are clearly doing this, meaning Charter is not

> really a school for local kids.

>

> Is Southwark going to do anything to addess this

> problem?

>

> Charter is my nearest school yet I won't get a

> place, however somebody who now lives in Clapham

> will do.

>

> (for the record, I have no problem with the policy

> of siblings getting in - my problem is for the

> policy siblings of people who now no longer live

> in Southwark having priority over local children)

>

> I've circled Harris Boys too but I can understand

> that because it is fairly close to other boroughs,

> but Charter couldn't be more central.

>

> Kingsdale, with an outside proportion of 59% from

> outside Southwark, where do we even begin? Let's

> just leave it at that shall we.

>

> Wouldn't a much fairer systme be:

>

> 1. looked after, etc

> 2. Siblings of children who live in Southwark

> 3. Children who live in Southwark

> 4. Siblings of children who no longer live in

> Southwark.

>

> Or something like that?

>

> And why can't councils share council tax records

> so that renting temporarily to be near a school

> whilst being a homeowner elsewhere can be stamped

> out (not completely I get it, but at least pretend

> to do something about it?).

Ole, Charter Nth has a large number of Lambeth children because it is on the border of Southwark and Lambeth. Chances are it has nothing to do with people moving out of the borough. Charter schools are academies funded by central government, so why should it prioritise Southwark residents? People across this area also send their children to Lewisham schools (Sydenham, Forest Hill, Haberdashers, Harris Crystal Palace). Council boundaries are irrelevant in this.

[Renata Hamvas]

Hi Ole, all Southwark secondaries are either academies/free schools or are voluntary aided/faith schools. This means they set and administer their own admissions policies. Southwark just does the school allocations at point of entry for year 7. Southwark can?t therefore alter any of the admission policies and the schools are responsible to check that parents haven?t made short term moves for admission purposes when the children start the school. It is a pan London set up, so I don?t see how a school could prioritise one borough over another. Charter ND and Kingsdale are both close to borough boundaries. Forest Hill Boys, Sydenham Girls, Deptford Green and Haberdashers Askes Hatcham are all Lewisham schools that have a significant intake from Southwark due to their proximity to the boundary with Southwark.

Renata