Whiteness?

[TheCat]

I know the spiked is a wind up page according to some.....but thoughts on the below......

Are we https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/02/25/the-

dangerous-war-on-whiteness/

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/02/24/yes-i-am-a-race-denier/

[TheCat]

It's telling that many people have viewed this post, but no one wants to touch it.....

[uncleglen]

This reminded me of a situation a few years ago when I took a class of teens and they were mainly black boys and girls and 4 white girls sat at the back.

At the end of the lesson I was tidying up and the white girls were giggling and laughing together and the 2 black boys packing away near me said..'those white girls...' I asked them what they meant but they just apologised and didn't explain.

[Hemingway]

I'm far from woke and despair of 'culture wars' and the whole identity politics idiocy. It'll lead to electoral wilderness for Labour if they keep going down that particular road.

But, having said that all, as a white middle-aged, middle class bloke I'm certainly not going to claim any victimhood. It's blatantly ridiculous to do so.

[malumbu]

I'm split between "what a lot of inflammatory nonsense" and "something here to discuss?

So intuitively - the UK is predominantly a western European culture (liberal/conservative?) infused with wider influences through trading, the commonwealth and the like.

Immigrant populations maintain some of their culture, sticking together, being a minority etc, such as food, music and the like. And then that melds with the indigenous. And for those from commonwealth countries the culture is influenced by European and sometime some sense of European being superior, and their's primitive (colonisers, missionaries etc).

Ultimately I expect much of is to do with socioeconomic status, income, education and the like, although a white person growing up in a cosmopolitan area with money and education may be very different to one from the shires.

It feels very dangerous to go down this whiteness route, flag of St George etc. But the above is off the top of my head.

To toss a grenade in the EDF (SE22 not the organisation of the same initials) does feel very white, at times being a bit patronising and occasionally a tad of casual racism "those people would wouldn't they". Tom Robinson not Tommy Robinson please.

[Hemingway]

To defend the 'un educated' white working class, in reality there's far more racial mixing in terms of marriage, relationships, parenthood, family, working together, living next door etc etc in the working class than among the worthy middle classes who think they're not racist at all but probably have a handful of black friends at most.....

[seenbeen]

Hemingway Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm far from woke and despair of 'culture wars'

> and the whole identity politics idiocy. It'll lead

> to electoral wilderness for Labour if they keep

> going down that particular road.

>

> But, having said that all, as a white middle-aged,

> middle class bloke I'm certainly not going to

> claim any victimhood. It's blatantly ridiculous to

> do so.

Laurence Fox summed it up on QT a couple of weeks ago

[TheCat]

Fascinating that Afua Hirsch (a woman of colour) can write two books about 'whiteness', while also banging on about 'lived experience'...I'm not sure how much lived experience she has of being white....

Frankly, I believe that anyone of any colour can have an opinion on anything to do with people of another colour, sex, religion etc...I don't care what colour you are when considering your argument. But according to the wokeists only certain groups can acceptably cast aspersions about other groups....

[edcam]

seenbeen Wrote:

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> Laurence Fox summed it up on QT a couple of weeks

> ago

Laurence Fox is an idiot.

[JohnL]

seenbeen Wrote:

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> Laurence Fox summed it up on QT a couple of weeks

> ago

Gone from twitter now

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/laurence-fox-social-media-break-question-time-a4370926.html

dai lama (started posting on gwladrugby.com when I did way back) gone too since Jan 1.

[Blah Blah]

Class inequalities are what underpin most of the grievances that emerge as fodder for identarians. That those most disadvataged by class then go and vote for libertarian populists is the perfect example of how the establishment keep that very class system in play.

It was never about being white. It was about not being poor. Conflation with ideas around ethnicity is a red herring and far more complex than just saying that white people have it good, BAME people don't. Some people succeed in life in all ethnic groups. What it is true to say though is that a higher proportion of BAME people are in lower socio-economic groups than their non BAME counterparts. There are many reasons for that, including historical ones and ingrained prejudice. The truth is that white working class people, have more in common with BAME people when it comes to disadvantage than they realise. The left have always understood this and sought to unify. The right have always ignored it, preferring divide and rule.

[malumbu]

Hemingway Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> To defend the 'un educated' white working class, in reality there's far more racial mixing in terms

> of marriage, relationships, parenthood, family, working together, living next door etc etc in the

> working class than among the worthy middle classes who think they're not racist at all but probably

> have a handful of black friends at most.....

Not so sure about this. Their are swathes of working class who moved out from the cities as part of white flight and the like and live in very white areas. Fortunately there are Eastern Europeans and gypsies for them to hate - well at least that's what my family in Tamworth come up with (they had to move out of Birmingham due to sharia law). Excuse me being facetious and I am sure you cannot make sweeping generalisations as I have just done.

[malumbu]

There are (not their are), sorry.

[uncleglen]

Blah Blah said

'The truth is that white working class people, have more in common with BAME people when it comes to disadvantage than they realise. The left have always understood this and sought to unify'.

In the 1970s those of us that were in the WRP (with Vanessa and Corin Redgrave, Robert Powell and others) were stationed outside Whitechapel station with their red rag and told to 'target black people because they are down trodden too'.

There were teachers from East End schools involved and they let students out early from their lessons to leaflet other schools. Disgusting manipulation of the white working class in action by the left. They got rid of grammar schools to keep the white working class uneducated and voting for their commie rubbish.

[Blah Blah]

What on earth are you talking about now Uncleglen? The WRP are no more representative of the left than the far right are of the right. The point still remains that the left, as the historical voice of the working classes, has recognised the shared struggle with BAME groups. The right, whioh prefers the Darwinian principle of survival of the fittest, and divide and rule, has not.

[TheCat]

Is it not cause for thought that uncle Glen (who is so derided on these pages) was previously a WRP supporter, and is now seen as very right wing......

[KalamityKel]

why does everything/everyone have to have a label?

[TE44]

KalamityKel Wrote:

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> why does everything/everyone have to have a label?

Categorisation encourages group mentality for some, a sense of belonging that can easily turn to division. Its a very rigid means of identifying, in this threads context I believe it has encouraged victim and abuser.

It feels like a pattern that has become more common, encouraging divide.

[JohnL]

KalamityKel Wrote:

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> why does everything/everyone have to have a label?

It's how humans evolved

One of us or one of the other.

[TE44]

JohnL, Adaption is also part of our evolution,not only with one another but with nature. We have become disconnected from nature, it feels very difficult to hold views without being seen as being on one side or the other. This duality does not feel real, it often simplifies a complex reletionship between individuals and groups. Being part of both and understanding difference, within and outside of your group, your point etc needs to be able to move.

[JohnL]

TE44 Wrote:

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> JohnL, Adaption is also part of our evolution,not

> only with one another but with nature. We have

> become disconnected from nature, it feels very

> difficult to hold views without being seen as

> being on one side or the other. This duality does

> not feel real, it often simplifies a complex

> reletionship between individuals and groups. Being

> part of both and understanding difference, within

> and outside of your group, your point etc needs to

> be able to move.

Is that what everyone now calls Emotional Intelligence ? I hadn't even heard of it until Warren Gatland said Wales rugby players needed it and now it's everywhere :)

Edit: and Yes I think it is a good thing as you described

[TE44]

Not sure Johnl what its called, a way of not

getting caught in a conversation where it goes round and round, where it becomes stagnant. Its not about not recognising, empathising or helping victims, I just don't think it is fair or helpful to try and use blame on a whole race.

[Blah Blah]

You make a very good point TE44. There are other cultures around the world who are more spiritual in their approach to life but on a person to person level, I am not sure they are any more devoid of the everyday squabbles than the rest of us.

[TE44]

Blah Blah I suppose it depends on how and what is important and needed in your life. Lets say you've got to walk three miles for water each day, the need for survival would be different, but I would imagine there may still be bickering if you felt someone else should take a turn for whatever reason. Things change no matter where you are, whether its from nature or ageing. If there is bickering it often comes about through unfairness. There would be more urgency to find a solution, there would not be time to ponder over who's to blame.

[uncleglen]

Blah Blah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> What on earth are you talking about now Uncleglen?

> The WRP are no more representative of the left

> than the far right are of the right. The point

> still remains that the left, as the historical

> voice of the working classes, has recognised the

> shared struggle with BAME groups. The right, whioh

> prefers the Darwinian principle of survival of the

> fittest, and divide and rule, has not.

The left historically has always been associated with Trade Unionism and the rights of workers and therefore working class people would vote Labour. There is no shared struggle with BAME groups as it is the white working class that the BAME groups can easily exploit and do so...grooming, drug dealing and other atrocities comes to mind. At the same time Labour and the left has disproportionately advantaged BAME people in order to get votes which they have taken for granted from the white working class.

To quote 'Peaky Blinders'- '....politics has always been about deliberately making life better for one group of people, whilst deliberately making it worse for another group...' (or words to that effect)...those of you with money, a property and living in the leafy enclave of East Dulwich will never understand that as you are cushioned from it-as are your kids.....