Cost of sash windows

[fazer71]

I only noticed as I was looking for them otherwise they look the same as the wooden ones. Have you seen them?

There is a compromise and in my view the excessive price charged for wood especially hard wood is not worth the extra effort and cost.

Current soft wood does not compare to the wood the Victorians used its crap.

As I've said above Victorian builders would use upvc if it had been available and we'd all be saying how lovely the original Victorian upvc windows were anyone looking to replace them with wood would be considered a fool.

I'm for keeping Victorian properties looking nice that doesn't mean horse hair plaster and lime mortar and damp walls when we now have much better materials which will keep the Victorian properties in good condition for another 100 years.

In my view it is a compromise worth making as the currently available upvc windows look visually more than acceptable.

The old upvc sash windows were crap..

Don't confuse the two .....

As for ?2,000 for hard wood sash that's a complete rip off and only good business for the makers who play on naive customers.

A good compromise as I've said would be to use wood a ground floor level there's no way I'd advocate upvc French doors they look crap but a upvc sash in a bedroom or bathroom is quite acceptable IMHO and will not detract from the look of a lovely Victorian house unless you focus all your attention to them on an overall view more than acceptable.

Go and look at those houses on adys rd 16 and 35 and tell me honestly that they look out of keeping.

[*Bob*]

I have seen the new uPVC ones. They're an improvement on the old ones, but - in situ - they look like plastic windows. There's no getting away from it. They look especially plastic from the inside, especially if they're in an environment with other period features, where they stick-out like a sore thumb.

I know you've got them, so you have to pretend they don't, but they do. They'rew ultra-smooth, no nicks, no build-of of paint, no imperfections in frame or glass, fugly locks, dentist white.. In other words.. Bosh.. Sore thumb.

When you look round a lot of Victorian houses with a view to buy, you notice that the ones with more period features, wooden windows included, go for considerably more, because people are prepared to pay the extra: not everyone, granted, but a significant enough number to make said features worth having an maintaining. And with prices upwards of 600k even for the smaller properties seemingly eye-watering maintenance costs can repay you when you sell. Or - as Red Devil said, kick you up the ass if you've cut costs.

[fazer71]

I think if there are two identical properties side by side with only the windows being a factor

You'd need to be nutter to chose a house over another because it has upvc windows.

I've been looking to buy a house for a while now and I wouldn't give a toss about the windows it location and layout and quality of the inside which count. As for a few grand the windows can be replaced.

Currently even houses which are rendered or pebledashed appear to sell for the same or more.

Windows appear make very little difference in price.

I have them because painting wood windows is silly expensive and I don't even notice that they are upvc inside they just look like white windows.

All that layers of paint and patina is agro in my eyes once you've got blinds or curtains covering them you don't even notice the windows. It when you need to deal with a tosser painter and decorator burning the old paint off for days on end and have the smell and cost of all that shit that's when you notice you've got timber windows it's all the aggro that you notice...

[*Bob*]

As I said, some people can't tell the difference, some people don't care..

Good for you if you've got what you want. But don't confuse 'you' with 'everybody else'!

Personally I think you should forget the Victorian Dream and find yourself a nice new-build. Before you suffer an apoplectic fit, halfway through building works.

[fazer71]

Naaaa

I know the difference and I know what is worth spending the money on and it's not a new build it isn't a fantasy Victorian house which has over priced marginally better items which won't make a jot of difference to my life.

I'd rather spend the ?11,000 on a bathroom than timber sash windows and still live in a prime ED road in a lovely damp free rot free renovated period house with a nice modern kitchen boiler and modern trimmings.

I wonder how many have timber windows and damp walls with rotting timber floors lurking below their carpet that's where I'd be spending my money not on timber fantasy sash windows at ?2k each ... Ffs lunacy of the highest order ?2,000 + years of dealing with decorators who I wouldn't ever deal with ever if I had the choice....

You keep your rotting decaying paint draining money consuming timber windows and I'll keep my lovely bathroom and holidays ... Yep the choice is all yours .

It's only my opinion adding some balance to a sill view that timber is somehow better I can they're better for the supplier manufacturer and the decorator and his decorator son . But for the home owner the benefits are minimal and the price is excessive.

Enjoy a life time of timber and making tea for decorators... Xx

[*Bob*]

Oh god.. 'the bathroom'.

Again.

[fazer71]

Another example of only wanting to deal with tosser builder plumber decorators once in a life time.

Do it right and do it so it lasts.

I guarantee you a nice bathroom will sell a property over nice windows any day.

[*Bob*]

No worries, we've got one one those - as well as the nice windows.

[fazer71]

Good 4 U some people have it all for the rest of us that's not an option...

I really don't think the old retired couple nextdoor could keep up with you ....

Or notice the benefits of spending ?11k extra on timber sash windows unless they have like you money to burn....

[*Bob*]

You're the one who keeps banging on about how much your bathroom cost - at every opportunity.

[fazer71]

Yea right that's exactly what I DO ...........

Why are you so concerned that everyone must spend ?2,000 on timber sash windows .

I've already said that's fine if you have the money and are happy to pay for the future decorating costs for your life...time...

You're a little sad to be trying to take the piss out of me when I'm the one who's giving a balanced view .

That makes you a little sad vs me I'd say....

Where I'm offering a considered view you have to stoop to sarcastic comments .... Nice just like your overrated wooden windows just a shallow surface thing with no real substance...

[red devil]

Faze, go easy on *Bob*, he has low self-esteem issues. Both him and Otta have weekly sessions st the Priory, the costs of which put wooden windows in the shade.

Instead, rejoice that you have your own little hole in the ozone layer with your name on it...along with the zillions of other uPVC users...

[fazer71]

We can only blame the environmental issues on the price of wood products.

They should be cheaper why are they so expensive?

The paints and other chemicals used to protect and preserve wood have an environmental cost and the related impact "fuel etc " of the ongoing upkeep of wood should also be a factor in the assessment of the environmental impact of wood often the likes of greanpeace fail to consider that in the final calculation.

I considered all factors and came to the conclusion that my quality of life and hard earned money in my bank account was more important to me.

And as I understand it upvc is a byproduct of oil / fuel production which would be produced regardless.

Wood grows everywhere You'd think it would be dirt cheap maybe it's all the energy used to dry it and transport it that makes it so expensive? I think the jury is our on which product has the most impact on the environment..?

[Dmlt]

I feel quite offended that you write I rip people off for charging A fair price for products we supply.

I might go and write a letter to audi or rollsroyce even - as i can can buy a car that goes from a to b for a tenth or a 100th of the price.....

[fazer71]

I see you wish to avoid my question of how ?1000 price difference can be justified for soft wood vs hard wood as there isn't a ?1000 cost difference in the timber.

What is the real difference from soft to hard wood ?120 ?

Nice little earner I'd say as the design and the manufacturing are identical.

Cars have a few million quids worth of product development sash windows soft or hard wood are identical.

Only the wood differs.

And window sales manufacturers make it sound like you can't buy the soft wood as they are soooo inferior.... It's a waste of money so forcing them to buy the hard wood. It's all a ruse by the window manufacturers and average people customers dont question it because unlike German consumers British consumers are mostly uneducated in the practicalities of life..

What is the true difference in cost ????

You'll never say because you know I'm right .... It's ok for you to offend the intelligence of your customers??

Soft wood ?1000 hard wood should be ?1120 ...

[Dmlt]

Manufacturing softwood vs hardwood is a different process - softwood tooling would last five minutes when used for hardwood.

The cheap windows you mention would not include the draft proofing all architraves, nosings, fully finishing it, disposal of rubbish a ten year guarantee, an installation carried out by skilled craftsman - i pay more for justthe windows than the prices you suggest and i know for a fact pvc manufacturers make more per window than hardwood manufacturers.

Not sure why i feel i need to justify it to you fazer. I can only say some like to make their kitchens out of recycled junk, some from ikea, some from magnet some have very high quality hand made ones - you may think them crazy as clearly there is a hugh price gap between each - it dosn't make one a no brainer over the other or over priced they are different. The bespoke are not ripping people off just offering what their customers want.

[fazer71]

It's ?120 difference in the materials.

The tooling these days is the same. For any sensible work shop. I had some shelves made in iroko And asked the question no difference these days was the answer.

You're talking your own book trying to justify a rediculous higher price margine.

The same is true of these bespoke kitchen manufacturers. All a load of hype...

At the end of the day it's the finish which counts and anyone who knows about kitchens knows even the best are made with a form of compressed timber which will not move over time. The surface finish is what's important and the work surfaces and draw systems soft close etc etc .. If its hand made and hand painted its probably got a shorter lifespan than the factory finished product. But will cost a lot more small bone comes to mind expensive crap.

Biggest % margine ? Really? There's no way to confirm that.

I bet your margin on a hardwood sash is pretty good maybe ?1500 profit on every one sold at ?2000. Probably more if you install 7 for a house front.

It's all about covering your business rates and tax but there's no way that can be justified as value for money when compared.

Good luck to you.

As long as the buyers feel good inside and they have the money that's all that matters but to discount the current Upvc sash windows is nonsense.

Because there is no need to install ?2000 hardwood sash windows when a perfectly acceptable cost effective low maintainance alternative exists.

Its down to material development and mnufacturing progress very few cobblers and there will be few wood sash window makers too. It's only a matter of time before we get a Upvc type material which will look just like wood and be paintable too and it will never rot and it'll cost ?350. That's the future.

[computedshorty]

Having made Box Frames and Sashes for over sixty years, those that I made are still seviceable to be seen in Dulwich.

When repairing bombed damage a sash the weight of the wood now being suggested will weight more, so the weight in the boxes has to be added to but is there suficiant room in the box, during repairing damaged sashes with second class glass ( all that was availabe at that time )It was much thicker and had many imperfections in it we were told caused by a draft of cold air in the process.

To get the ballance right we added strips of lead coiled around the cord, above the weight but this restricted the clearence of the lenght of the weight lift so a sash might not open fully.

Timber these days has not been allowed to dry out natrually, then when a stick was placed between every layer of drying timber to allow the air to get between.

Hardwood is not needed as long as the softwood timber is knotted, primed, a first coat the finishing coat.

will last a lifetime.

[*Bob*]

I am taking the piss somewhat, Fazer.. As your bullish style of agressive know-all posting, where your way is THE ONLY WAY and what other people are prepared to value somehow makes them an idiot - asks for it.

You've already spent twice as much on a bathroom for a flat than many people (not me.. But many others) would consider sane.. Yes.. Several thousand pounds down the toilet in order to have something 'nicer' which you value, when many other lesser alternatives and finishes would do the job and still look good and work just as well. Sound familiar?

You fabricate a bizarre black and white world where, apparently, owners of Victorian properties are required to replace masses of windows in one fell swoop and decide plastic or wood, smart or idiot, there and then, when the reality is more often one of ongoing maintenance and 'what fits' with the rest of the house as it stands - or the houses on your stretch of street.

Turn your self-appreciation dial down a notch or two.

[LondonLogCo]

Tell me Fazer, based on your info shown at the foot of this post (see below); do you mean chip or particle boards?

I've been working in and around this business for 25 years plus (though I don't sell kitchens).

You've got your facts the wrong way round. It's the hand finished "in frame" hand painted kitchens that stand the test of time. They refresh very well every few years. Whereas the lay on door type suffer fatigue, to the point of collapse sooner. Generally manufactured in Germany / Italy and supplied with factory finished doors.

The metal engineered runners have massively improved over the years, though quality varies across the price ranges. Soft close has been grabbed by the industry, specially the lesser quality manufactures as it gives a cheap carcass more life due to to less damaging shock waves ( due to slamming ) transmited through a carcass. It's a cheap solution and gets around the problem of cheap structural materials. Though eventually the poor build quality gives up the ghost.

The ultimate product uses structural laminate board ( essentially a marine ply, not a chip/particle board) carcasses either melamine or wood faced, routed and broad screw fixed. Solid dovetail hardwood drawer boxes set on 40kg + rated Blum or similar manufacturer runners. The carcass then gets faced with a Tulip wood in-frame cabinet type door. These doors are hung on brass cabinet butt hindges. Each cabinet is built as a piece of individual piece of furniture, they sit to the floor and not up on plastic feet. Each cabinet is supplied 25 mm over size to allow to it to be scribed to fit.

Once fitted the cabinets are hand finished with an oil based eggshell paint ( though its primed and first coated in the factory prior to delivery ) This is what last, it is expensive to make and time consuming to fit/finish. However, not everyone can afford this level of quality.

Worktops, like stone and Iroko last well too.

If you're savy, you get what you pay for. Just depends if you really know what you are looking at, or what to ask for.

*Woody

Fazer wrote:

At the end of the day it's the finish which counts and anyone who knows about kitchens knows even the best are made with a form of compressed timber which will not move over time. The surface finish is what's important and the work surfaces and draw systems soft close etc etc .. If its hand made and hand painted its probably got a shorter lifespan than the factory finished product. But will cost a lot more small bone comes to mind expensive crap.

[fazer71]

Bob

Apologies if I come across like that I really don't mean it I try to be balanced and offer a common sense opinion.

It just makes me mad and my blood boils to think of anyone paying ?2,000 for a single sash window let alone paying out to replace 14-16 sash windows on a Victorian house potentially ?32,000. Its Totally insane if you can't afford to do that there's a perfectly acceptable alternative.

As computedshorty has explained above properly seasoned soft timber would last for many years only the softwood and hardwood we have today isn't properly seasoned it's rushed out into production and then it's installed without being properly primed and treated never mind the lack of seasoning.

Bathroom is totally different bespoke shower enclosure high end stone German taps and mixers all come to lots of money uf heating etc etc and weeks of man hours to install. All of will be used several times a day every day of the year for many many years.

Windows you can only make so well they're just a couple of glass units some lead weights a couple of pulleys and a few bits of wood glued and nailed together every one is the same as the next just a different size they're easy to make on a production line...

They take a coouple of hours at most to install an entire house can have its windows replaced in 2 days max.

Regardless I still think and I've said many times if you have the money and that's what you want then that's great.

Yippy do daaaaaaa fantastic.

For me even if I had the money I would only bother with the timber sash windows in certain windows.

We get too much wet weather and not having access to lead paint "i believe the queen does" we're only going to have to replace and reprint them for the rest of our lives and life is too short to have to worry about windows over holidays no matter how lovely they look. Just my opinion....

[fazer71]

LondonLogCo Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> If you're savy, you get what you pay for. Just

> depends if you really know what you are looking

> at, or what to ask for.

>

> *Woody

>

> Fazer wrote:

> At the end of the day it's the finish which counts

> and anyone who knows about kitchens knows even the

> best are made with a form of compressed timber

> which will not move over time. The surface finish

> is what's important and the work surfaces and draw

> systems soft close etc etc .. If its hand made and

> hand painted its probably got a shorter lifespan

> than the factory finished product. But will cost a

> lot more small bone comes to mind expensive crap.

Yes you're correct that build quality will last well past it's totally out of fashion and new developments have made the layout and appliances go the way of a coal fired hearth.

It will still need painting many times before the factory finished products are past their best.

Also if you like a modern look you're going to be a little stuck poggenpohl it's not !

Fashion is the biggest enemy of any kitchen not wear and tear ... And the carcas only need to last as long as that too.

I ripped out a smallbone kitchen in my last flat sold it to a neighbours son for his country cottage so on that basis recyclable in an oldywoldy way .... If that excellent build quality means it won't end up in a skip when you fancy getting all the new bells and whistles or just because your old kitchen looks naff. Even if you paint it a different colour you're still stuck with a last decade layout and look..... I thought those smallbone style hand made kitchens were only being sold in tonbridge wells these days not hip ED what next AGAs running 365days a year in everyone's 1 and 2 bed flats? That was so 80s sloane ranger styleeeee....

[*Bob*]

Fair enough.. Thank you.. And sorry for being arsey too.

I totally get the cost factor, and can entirely appreciate why it would be mad money for many. But there are surely occasions and places where fitting anything other than wood could be equally mad.

I really don't know what the profit is on manufacturing wooden sash windows.. I can only think that if it were 'so great', someone out there would be cleaning-up by doing them for less and still making a healthy profit.

[LondonLogCo]

We're fitting more hand painted classic cabinet kitchens ( as described ) than ever. In fact it's all we fit .

During a downturn taste becomes more conservative. My theory is that should the owner want to cash thier asset, then it's this type of product that is a safe bet. guess what colour is the most popular

Grey, Grey & more Grey. The only true neutral, what does that say about the state of things?

The whole fashion thing usually comes with (dare i say) " newer money" aspirational customers. And most of our work isn't in areas like ED ( 2 in the last few years)

Hampstead, Chelsea, Maida Vale & Mayfair still and always will rock this classic look.

[Dmlt]

Well fazer you are wrong. I've been installing sash windows for the best part of 20 years.

I can only install 2 boxsash windows per day fully finished (3 in pvc) at a push (thats with two men)

?120 is not the material difference - yes if you use cheap timber.

You know nothing about what i do for my customers as then you would realise what we offer is amazing value for money considering the work that goes into fully replacing a victorian boxsah window.

I leave this thread here and only hope the origional poster locks the thread to stop your ill informed opions about boxsash windows.