Cost of sash windows

[fazer71]

Peckhamgatecrasher Wrote:

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> "UPVC is a no brainer"

>

> But it looks naff.

Not these days I put on the back of my flat but I would have them on the front.

You can see exactly the same on a house in Adys Rd top end LH side near Oglander I can't remember the number but they are exactly the same as mine.

They have all the detailing of the timber windows chrome pull handles and lifters.

Really a 100% no brainer.

Unless you sit with your nose up against them 24/7 and caress them all day long.

Once they?re in you just get on with living?? and they blend in to your life and I love the not having to paint them the most?.

Timber very overrated in 2012.

[Dmlt]

I thought we were talking about timber?

But you are right pvc are very good value, do a great job of insulating and noise reduction and look great. It is all in the finish and survey. And some systems are definitely better than others.

[DulwichDeviant]

DELETED

[fazer71]

Why would you want to use an expensive problem material of questionable quality and source like Wood when a better material like UPVC is available?

New UPVC sash windows look exactly the same as Wood, only without all the problems costs and maintance issues.

Talking Nonsense ...

If you want to stay in the Victorian Era then you need coal fires gas lighting and an outside Loo ... etc

Get with the times and save yourself potentially tens of thousands ... of .. ?????

[KidKruger]

Surely it's down to people's choice ?

..which means it is very much a 'Brainer', actually.

[*Bob*]

I'm loving the vigour of the convert, but you can't make everybody prefer plastic windows simply by repeatedly screaming "you must like plastic windows and if you don't you must be an idiot" at them.

Not when they have eyes, can see the difference - and don't want them.

The biggest problem with uPVC in period houses (even at the highest quality of uPVC) is that you're putting something which is and always will be uniformly perfect - on both sides - into an environment which was never perfect in the first place and is also bound-up in a cycle of constant degradation and renewal - also known as 'character'.

So eg yes, you may not have to repaint the sashes, but unless everything else around them is kept in absolutely perfect condition, they just look a bit wrong. And they're one colour, fixed, which you're stuck with forever and can't repaint even if you want to.

I can appreciate how some people can't tell the difference; how some can tell but aren't that arsed and how other factors such as cost, maintenance and energy factors play their part. Good for them. But to pooh-pooh the load of people who just don't like them for perfectly good reasons is frankly daft.

Incidentally, all the windows in our house, top and bottom, front and back - are made of wood and are (save for two panes) 120 years old. Seems like a fairly good shelf-life for stupid old wood to me.

And, of course, they'll never look weird.

[red devil]

What *Bob* said.

uPVC can actually detract from the overall value of a period property, negating any installation savings...

[KidKruger]

personally (though I admit to being a keen amateur tradesman) I like maintaining my house, there's something 'honest' about it, for me, especially the windows. Some of my windows are from 1866, the rest from intervening replacements.

I'd genuinely like to know how how LONG the plastic windows last, could they match 148 years or longer.

I have thought about UPVC for the rear of my house, which suffers by far the harshest weather conditions in rain/wind.

[red devil]

In theory plastic will last forever, because the plastic isn't biodegradable. Aesthetics and green issues aside, the problem with uPVC is the components that make up the whole, they tend to be of poor quality and workmanship, hence even the leading manufacturers will only offer a 10-year guarantee, not a lot for a product that will 'last forever'.

Got this from a Google search...

http://www.guildford.gov.uk/article/870/Repair-and-reinstatement-of-windows

[KidKruger]

had a look at that link.

"UPVC windows have a life expectancy of between 10 to 30 years before they yellow, chalk, bend or the seals fail."

- think I'd rather maintain my windows a couple of evenings/weekends a year.

On average it takes between 60 and 100 years for UPVC windows to pay for themselves in ".

- so they NEVER pay for themselves because in 60-100 years, at best, you've refitted them 2-3 times.

Whoever said it's a "NO BRAINER", was, in fact, spot on. I eat my words. It IS a no-brainer, but in respect of going with wood !

[fazer71]

Ummmm

Quality UPVC doesn?t yellow or bend.

Current timber windows are prone to rotting within a short time as the timber is usually not properly dried or treated and as we can?t use lead paint they?re unlikely to last 100years even with painting every 3 years the water will penetrate the sills will rot in no time.

1.

I?m not against wood.

Refurbishing the existing sash makes the most sense as long as the side boxes are still there even if there are dodgy aluminium windows inside the boxes its? easy to have sliders made and pulleys and weights to get them back to original.

2.

But if that?s not possible and you absolutely can?t refurbish the existing and money is no object and you?re happy to pay for wood at ?2000 per window / ?14,000 for the 7 needed on the front of a Victorian house vs. ?3,150 for UPVC it will take many years to recouped the ?11,000 and you?ll need to pay ?700 - ?1000 every 3 years to have them professionally painted (even if you can find a pro who won?t paint them shut with cheapo watered down crap paint).

3.

Otherwise the current UPVC sash looks more than acceptable and ZERO maintenance for at least 30 years but more likely 50 years. Savings on the maintenance alone placed in the bank would pay for the next gen upvc sash in 30-50years that is if you haven?t moved house or you?re not 6ft under???..

Yes they don?t look quite as good as wood but there?s no way they?ll detract from the property as long as they are of the victorian style I cycled past that house on Adys Rd it?s No16 and noticed No35 further up on the other side also has them they look fine go and see..

If money is no object then wood all the way ?.. But remember it?s not just the installation cost it?s a future of maintance and what are the chances you?ll want to paint them any colour other that white ????

If it takes 60 - 100 years for upvc to pay for themselves then wood will take 200-500 years ...... hehehehehehe

[*Bob*]

White? Which shade of white?

[fazer71]

Ahh the white / whiter than white story let?s not get onto washing white clothes ?.. We?ll be here for years?.

All shades of white depend on the colour of the sky amount of sun and reflections from surroundings.

So for windows pretty much any shade of white will look like every other shade of white at some point of day or time of year over its life?..

Therefore any white will do but 99% of the time it'll be a gloss brilliant white........... Which will dull over time ...to a non gloss white.....or some other white...

Fact is you?ll look at it 2wice the day it?s been painted and the day it needs painting?.. The rest of the time you?ll be living your life? unless you?ve a paint fetish.

[*Bob*]

I agree, if I had brilliant white plastic windows all over the inside of my house, I'd make an effort never to look at them. But that's a red herring.. I'd never have bought that house in the first place.

As it goes, we have nice wooden ones with their many charming imperfections, painted in shades of white sympathetic to the rest of the woodwork.. which are worth looking at - when I'm not beating off over a can of paint, of course.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Bugger. I know well and dearly love the folk in no. 16 so I can't now say what I really think.

[fazer71]

hehehehe

V good.

Enjoy ..

There's a mkt for nice colours internal painted windows 4 sure.

But 99% of us just keep the windows white and muck about with the walls doors and furniture.

Even so it would be possible to change the colour on the inside of upvc windows if you absolutely must I?m pretty confident it wouldn?t cost ?11,000 to achieve that?. Look ;) ?.

[Dmlt]

Well our hardwood won't rot in no time. Sapele lasts 15 years in a stake test (untreated timber hammered into ground at an angle - test over when wood rots and timber hits the ground) so painted it will last much longer. New water based micro pourus paint systems should last a minimum of 5 years before repainting - no sanding or re priming required - just top coat.

Pvc box sash will last approx 25 years - timber boxsash should last a life time. So by the time you replace pvc windows 4 times or maintain timber box sash for 100 years i'm guessing it will even out - depends on the outlay your prepared to put up.

As windows paying for themselves i don't get it. Nothing i have ever bought paid for itself? If you buy new windows you get benifits of being warmer, better security, something nice and new, something you can open with ease, if windows really paid for themselves everyone woud have new windows.

The choice between wood or pvc is individual and decisions are made by the people who buy them not by people who sell them. Some houses are improved by pvc some are not - equally there are some bad timber ones out there - you can see many examples of each down oakhurst grove.

At the end of the day if 2k is too much for timber window no one would buy them, but people do. I whish they were cheaper then i would sell lots more. But If you look at materials, workmanship and quality of hardwood a boxsash window fully fitted and finished in your home i think 2 k is tremendos value for money.

[fazer71]

Upvc lasts far longer than 25 years!

What I don't understand is why hard wood sash windows are twice the price of soft wood.

The cost of manufacturer is the same for both.

The cost of hard wood "sapele" is not ?1,000 extra per window!

Isn't it just a rip off? Dmit ?

As for micro porous paints on south facing French doors the paint turned to dust and needed doing almost every 12 months at my parents house they were lucky no ladder or ?1,000 scaffolding needed to paint them.

?2k is a hell of a lot of money and hard wood window manufacturers are making a lot of profit there's no way they are value for money on any level when compared to upvc.

They may be aesthetically better when looked at close up.

Very few people have that kind of money to throw away on a very very marginal and questionable benefit which will not benefit them during their life !

Upvc is now a reliable material which can replace wood with ease and with many benefits over wood especially when used at height to minimise painting.

The Victorians were far more practical than we are....

If Victorian builders had UPVC they wouldn't have made the sash windows from wood they'd have used UPVC no question ..

Is it a case of snobbery ? Over practicality ? Probably.

Are they really worth 4 times as much?

Just go and see the upvc ones I mentioned on adys rd.

Yes if money is no object then wood but most of us would rather save ?11,000+ and the same again for a life time of painting for more important life changing things like paying the mortgage going on holiday and living a comfortable life.

I guess you'd be looking at your lovely wood sash windows when you should be on a beach or ski slopes living your lovely life but spend ?2k per sash and it's the sash man who'll be on the beach and ski slopes rather than you .....

[EPB]

A wooden window can last 300 years and is biodegradable.

A PVC window lasts 30 years and is non- biodegradable. So at the end of 300 years there will be ten PVC windows in a landfill site - forever.

[fazer71]

.?.

Nonsense Upvc is recycled at the end of its life it no longer goes into landfill.

Even if a modern timber window did last that long which I think is highly unlikely.

I'll be dead in 50 years why on earth would I want a window which will last 300 years ?

Why on earth would I want the hassle and cost of painting it every few years?

There is an environmental impact on the manufacturer of the paints and the decorator needs a vehicle to go to and from the work and the scaffolders need a truck to transport the scaffolding all of which is probably a bigger environmental impact than replacing the upvc window in 50+ years time!

On an aesthetic basis I can see a justification but at a HUGE questionable cost to the current and future owner and the environment.

[fazer71]

Also a wooden window can last as litle as 5 years...... Then start rotting to dust .. Upvc would never do that...

The sensible thing if you must have new is only install wood where it can easily be maintained and will be noticed ie ground floor rear living kitchen rooms Everywhere else bedrooms and the front upvc would be the better option.

[KidKruger]

"....pay for wood at ?2000 per window / ?14,000 for the 7 needed on the front of a Victorian house".

This is rubbish exaggeration.

Look at top of thread I've already explained that got large windows at Runcent for @ ?475 inc. VAT each.

And the 'rot in no time' nonsense too!! Unless I've been mysteriously lucky - in 20 years I've not had any windows rot (that I've installed and maintained).

Weird how people seem to resent having to maintain their properties - isn't it a basic reality that if you have a shelter you need to maintain it to keep dry and warm ?

[fazer71]

You can't get double glazed timber sash windows for that price inc fitting and

Painting etc. nonsense... The cheapest would be ?1000 in soft wood installed and glazed ?2,000 is for hard wood.

Anyone would resent maintaining something which has an alternative which is cheaper and requires zero care...

There have been plenty of instances of soft wood sash windows rotting in no time no exaggeration..!

[fazer71]

I was told Legally you can't replace a window with a complete single glazed sash you are allowed to repair the original but if you can't repair it you are supposed to replace it with a double glazed window.

If that is true the runcent are supplying an illegal product?

Also whi would want a condensation making single glazed window ?

[*Bob*]

There's a certain irony at play here. Not long ago you complained (in another thread) of the evils done to Victorian properties, poor build quality, poor material choices - and yet here you are gleefully fitting something that some other schmuck, somewhere down the line - another you - will have to remove and replace, cursing under their breath the person that fitted it, either because it's broken or it looks rubbish.

The fact that you can cycle down a road and pick out all the houses with uPVC at speed tells you all you need to know.

As for hassle and cost, aesthetics versus practicality, what else does this apply to? Why would you want the hassle and cost of, say, owning a garden, having wooden flooring or certain types of upholstery fabric, when an option exists to have alternatives which are more hardwearing and take less looking after?

Why? Because they look nice! And most things which are nicer take more looking after!