EU Trade Talks Thread

[Sephiroth]

You people are crazy

I wrote this a few years back and it?s holds up pretty well still

Don?t go blaming eu - you did this. After all ?you knew what you were voting for?

https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?20,1833347,2000118#msg-2000118

[keano77]

I have also stated on more than one occasion that the EU used Ireland to try to trap the U.K.

Friday showed how little Ireland matters to the EU.

The EU needs to tread very carefully

[Sephiroth]

Friday showed that Ireland called the commission and explained what?s what. And the commission listened and backed down

It?s the U.K. govt that has repeatedly said it?s comfortable with triggering article 16 or even ?starving? Ireland to get a good deal

The eu has not used Ireland in any of this over 5 years - If it had yiu would be hearing a lot more about it from. Irish people.

Why am I even arguing with you. It?s nuts

[TheCat]

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> You people are crazy

>

> I wrote this a few years back and it?s holds up

> pretty well still

>

> Don?t go blaming eu - you did this. After all

> ?you knew what you were voting for?

>

> https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?

> 20,1833347,2000118#msg-2000118

Blimey...the brass neck required to end a rant like that with an accusation that it's the other people who are overly emotive....

[keano77]

You?re not arguing with me. You?re just putting a very forgiving gloss on the EU?s ?mistake?. I thought Miche?l Martin was statesmanship personified.

All I?m saying is the EU is now on a steep learning curve with Northern Ireland. The likes of Arlene Foster will have Ursula for breakfast. The last thing the EU needs is to be accused of jeopardising the peace process with its silly rules.

[keano77]

? Michael Gove will demand today that Brussels take urgent action to relax post-Brexit trade rules between Britain and Northern Ireland because the situation is endangering the peace process...?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/crisis-talks-with-eu-after-loyalist-threats-at-northern-irish-ports-6fgmsstb5

[snowy]

Textbook cakeism

[TheCat]

Ah...I see now....

UK pressing its concerns over Irish situation = cakeism

EU pressing its concerns over Irish situation = Eu just protecting its own interests and the UK getting what it deserves

The government should just give up striving for the UK's interests right? give up pushing for a better deal when it thinks it can? just rollover and accepts whatever the EU want at any time on anything yes? After all, 'brexiteers voted for this' so no matter how punitive the EU becomes, it was all part of it, so dont bother fighting for anything....

[JohnL]

keano77 Wrote:

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> ? Michael Gove will demand today that Brussels

> take urgent action to relax post-Brexit trade

> rules between Britain and Northern Ireland because

> the situation is endangering the peace

> process...?

>

> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/crisis-talks-wi

> th-eu-after-loyalist-threats-at-northern-irish-por

> ts-6fgmsstb5

I heard they wanted to extend the grace period which I can't see why they EU won't allow.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-55904189

The cakeism maybe is they could have extended the transition period until all this was sorted out (or sorted it out within the transition period)

UK was also threatening to invoke article 16 over this - but after the recent furore it seems they'll be seen as rather two faced if they did.

[Sephiroth]

"UK pressing its concerns over Irish situation = cakeism

EU pressing its concerns over Irish situation = Eu just protecting its own interests and the UK getting what it deserves "

This is not what is happening.

The last 4 years were both sides coming to an agreement about what brexit would mean for the border. The current problems were repeatedly outlined and UK repeatedly dismissed or ignored. Johnson got elected on the back of his promises to get this done - people pointed out the problems with the border - he constantly refused to acknowledge them ("tell them to contact me and I'll put the paperwork in the bin")

This was a problem entirely foretold and to. turn around and say now - well it's both sides innit - is disingenuous at best

Uk asking for extension of exemption until 2023 just coincidentally happens to help Johnson and his next election, again avoiding worst extremes of his own decisions. Why hasn't he done anything in last few years to address the problems that are happening now?

[KidKruger]

? The government should just give up striving for the UK's interests right??

If they had ever even STARTED striving we?d still be in the EU.

[diable rouge]

[JohnL]

I understand that the prime minister is now prepared to invoke article 16 after today's PMQs ?

[ianr]

JohnL Wrote:

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> I understand that the prime minister is now

> prepared to invoke article 16 after today's PMQs ?

Who's told you what?

[JohnL]

ianr Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> JohnL Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I understand that the prime minister is now

> > prepared to invoke article 16 after today's PMQs

> ?

>

> Who's told you what?

The NI question asked if he would use any means at his disposal - he seemed to say yes but it;s difficult with him to follow what he's on about.

He also said he would be prepared to a few weeks back

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/brexit/watch-we-will-have-no-hesitation-in-triggering-article-16-if-necessary-says-boris-johnson-39964412.html

[JohnL]

Here BBC has it - questioner was Ian Paisley

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-55917414

[Spartacus]

JohnL Wrote:

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> Here BBC has it - questioner was Ian Paisley

>

> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-559

> 17414

He said the government would act "legislatively" or by invoking an emergency mechanism known as Article 16 to override part of the protocol, if other solutions cannot be reached with the EU to remove GB-NI trade barriers.

is the exact statement, so it's not that he will, but might if circumstances became serious enough to call for it.

[JohnL]

Fair enough Sp - The democratic unionists seem to have a bee in their bonnet about NI trade saying it's not just teething problems.

I thought they had the best UK position (best of both worlds) but they aren't happy.

[Seabag]

AnywYsz

Ain?t Brexit great 👍🏽

Totes got the country somewhere

[Sephiroth]

"im interested in what level of action you would consider crosses the line from 'expected/reasonable protection of EU interests' to 'spiteful/resentful/petty 'payback'?"

"The government should just give up striving for the UK's interests right? give up pushing for a better deal when it thinks it can? just rollover and accepts whatever the EU want at any time on anything yes?"

What I don't get about comments like this is the lack of understanding. From someone who professes to have done som much thinking and research into their decision to leave and from someone who still supports it so so much

What does crossing the line mean? we were a member of the EU for decades so we know what it's interests are. We know what it gives to other countries and we know what it expects in return. This government has rejected any and all concessions so gets none back (pretty much) - this govt has said in fact, that that is what it wants. So what line is the EU crossing and why do you think it's them crossing it?

UK interests and a better deal? The UK has only in recent months signed this deal - in fact told everyone it was a great deal that will see UK prosper mightily? why is it seeking a better deal already? What's wrong with this one and why did they sign it?

[TheCat]

I think you know very well what I mean. Do you never tire of trying to pick holes (and pick arguments) in anything someone who thinks differently from you has said?

The general consensus is that the deal is 'thin', and that there will be ongoing negotiation as to standards and resultant tariff or not in specific areas. It's not about 'seeking a better deal' it about pushing the envelope within the parameters of the one we have.

Im not saying anything wildly controversial when I say that there are clearly elements within the EU who want to 'punish' Britain for leaving the club. And, yes, we do know what they give to other countries, and by knowing this, some of the demands they have made of the UK are clearly unreasonable in that context.

For example, farm produce is subject to more stringent sanitary checks than the EU demands from New Zealand.....

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://committees.parliament.uk/oralevidence/1591/pdf/&ved=2ahUKEwjsv5W--dXuAhWtQkEAHQC7AxoQFjACegQIDRAC&usg=AOvVaw22srVCdfA4bHxLelfCbx4B

But what I do I know...I lack understanding apparently....

[Sephiroth]

You asked the questions - I was replying

But yes I will continue to point out the folly of brexit and all of it's shitty outcomes

"The general consensus is that the deal is 'thin',"

Who is this consensus amongst? Does it include the 27 countries of the EU? Does it include the UK Prime Minister who says we will prosper mightily? Does it include anyone who genuinely matters?

The deal is indeed thin and not fit for purpose from a UK perspective - but that's what remainers have been saying for years. It's this Leave govt who sold it to electorate as a great deal

Ongoing negotiations? They ended when the deal was signed. You can't sell and amazing deal and then say it's thin and want to negotiate afterwards. Besides - what leverage have you got now compared to being a member?

"Im not saying anything wildly controversial when I say that there are clearly elements within the EU who want to 'punish' Britain" - again - how big is the group where this opinion is not wildly controversial? Who are it's members? Are they credible? Or are they just sore and bitter because they realise the damage they have done to their own country?

the EU is doing nothing, nothing unique to the UK compared to comparable nearby countries. NZ (as you well know) is the other side of the world. How is that comparable to say, Switzerland or Norway?

Were these non-NZ-comparable checks somehow a surprise to the UK after signing the deal? Anyone who tried to examine the deal pre end of extension was told they were trying to stop Brexit. No point complaining now

[alex_b]

Cat can you point to anywhere where the EU is breaking the agreement? If they are then I hope our government is bringing this to the dispute resolution process. If you?re just complaining that member states are enforcing the agreement as specified, then that?s the fault of this government for negotiating such a terrible deal based on their own stupid red lines and refusal to request an extension.

[Sephiroth]

like I keep saying - Cat knows. He KNOWS he's fucked it. I'll bet he has friends and family who tell him exactly that as well. But easier to come on here and fight with people like me

Years we've been saying Northern Ireland is a problem. Years we have been saying trade, farming and fishing will be screwed. Not a care in the world from Cat- oh but now it's actually real and actually happening??? "It's the nasty EU punishing us! We need a better deal!!!!"

4 years of brexit, 2 subsequent elections, 2 subsequent Tory leaders, several extensions - all to prepare and hammer out a better deal - amounted to zilch

No self-awareness. No responsibility. Still thinks it'll be worth it

Where is this better deal going to come from? What will it look like? What form will it take? What will UK give up to get better terms and access? Who holds all the cards? Not the UK

[TheCat]

alex_b Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Cat can you point to anywhere where the EU is

> breaking the agreement? If they are then I hope

> our government is bringing this to the dispute

> resolution process. If you?re just complaining

> that member states are enforcing the agreement as

> specified, then that?s the fault of this

> government for negotiating such a terrible deal

> based on their own stupid red lines and refusal to

> request an extension.

I'm not saying anyone is breaking any agreements.

Go back on to the previous page where, the discussion was on rumours of some 'petty officialdom' and perhaps spiteful interpretation of the rules in some cases.

Sephiroth replied saying this is all the 'UK's choice'....I simply asked if it was reasonable to expect punitive or spiteful behaviour..and at what stage would he judge the line between good faith rule interpretation and spiteful nitpicking to be crossed?

It is of course naive in the extreme to suggest a deal is signed then everything is 'sorted'. There will be ongoing interpretation and enforcement of the terms from both sides. Some of that will be fair and some it won't be, where it isn't, the UK should fight it's corner (just as the EU should do the same) rather than just glibly accepting any unesseary harsh interpretation as just the 'UKs choice' and 'what brexiteers voted for'.....

As an aside, I agree that an extension of transition period would probably have been sensible after signing the deal, to give businesses more clarity and time to adjust...as opposed to the 7 days or so that they did get.