EU Trade Talks Thread

[edcam]

The simple truth is that there is no such thing as a good deal, as the deal we had was the best available. It will be many years before we can get out of this mess. The damage it has done and will do to this country (apart from those who pushed it through in their own interests) is immeasurable.

[Sue]

Just received this from Helen Hayes:

14:48 (55 minutes ago)

to me

Helen Hayes for Dulwich and West Norwood

Dear Sue,

This is a very difficult day for many of us. In 2016 Labour Party members and local residents in Dulwich and West Norwood voted overwhelmingly to Remain in the European Union. Many of us campaigned as hard in the referendum as we have done in the series of critical general elections over the last decade.

We did so, fundamentally, because we believe that our common ground is greater than our differences, and that in all its imperfections, the European Union has been an embodiment of our values of internationalism, cooperation, friendship, tolerance and social justice; and because we have seen the many benefits of membership over forty years in peace, prosperity and many different spheres of collaboration and shared experience with our closest neighbours across international borders.

I know how painful the referendum result has been in the years since 2016, and how much grief there is today, as Parliament agrees our future relationship outside of the European Union.

It is a privilege to represent one of the most pro-EU constituencies in the country. I am proud of our diversity, which makes our communities outward facing and internationalist to our core. I have stood as Labour?s candidate in Dulwich and West Norwood in three general elections since 2015, and in each I have made very strong personal commitments to stand up for the internationalist, pro-EU views and values of the vast majority of local residents.

In the short period of time since the UK-EU trade deal was announced on Christmas Eve, I have done as much as I can to engage local Labour Party members and my constituents in order to understand your views. Thousands of people have been in touch and I am hugely grateful to everyone who has filled out my survey or contacted me by email, and especially for the many thoughtful and reflective views which members have shared.

It is clear that this is not a factional issue within the Labour Party. Members who share the same perspectives on many other issues, from all parts of the Labour Party, have different views about the right way to respond to the bill today. This reflects the fact, which we must not forget, that Brexit is a mess entirely of the Tories? making which creates many complex dilemmas for Labour and no completely straightforward route through it.

A clear majority of members who responded to my survey supported a position of abstention, although a large proportion also supported voting for the deal. A tiny proportion of both members and constituents ? just 5% - thought that Labour should be voting against the deal today.

It is utterly disgraceful that Boris Johnson has allowed just five hours, during which fewer than a tenth of MPs are likely to be able to speak, to debate the bill and the treaty today. As a consequence, despite applying for a slot, I am unable to speak in the House of Commons, but I have published the speech that I would have delivered here.

It is with great sadness and after much deliberation that I have concluded that I cannot reconcile voting with the Labour whip today, to accept Boris Johnson?s trade deal and implement it, with the commitments I have made to both members and my constituents on the EU. While I know that there will be members who take a different view ? and I fully respect your views - I believe that this position also carries the support of a majority of local Labour Party members.

The trade deal that has been negotiated is the only deal on offer and it is clearly far, far better than leaving the European Union with no deal. For that reason, I will not vote against the implementation bill today, but I will abstain. This deal, the only trade deal in our history which will leave the UK more isolated from our trading partners is Boris Johnson?s deal, it is supported by the Tory European Research Group and would be carried on Tory votes alone.

I fully understand that in abstaining today, I will not have complied with the Labour whip, and that I cannot therefore continue to serve as a shadow minister on Labour?s front bench. With great sadness and regret, I have therefore written to Keir Starmer today to offer my resignation as Shadow Minister for the Cabinet Office and will return to the back benches.

In taking this difficult decision, I want to be clear that my primary concern is being true to the personal promises I have made to members and my constituents. This is an impossible issue, created by reckless Tory ideologues and I make no judgement of Labour colleagues who have taken a different approach to this most difficult of issues.

I will work tirelessly from the back benches to represent my constituents in Dulwich and West Norwood, to contribute to the Labour vision that we will take to voters at the next general election and to campaign for a Labour government with Keir Starmer as Prime Minister. I hope that we will all be able to unite around this goal.

With warmest wishes,

Helen

Helen Hayes MP

http://www.helenhayes.org.uk/

Helen Hayes for Dulwich and West Norwood ?

[Blah Blah]

JohnL Wrote:

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> that's fair comment.

Agreed. It is the kind of 'in between' deal that was only ever going to be acceptable (even if through gritted teeth for some) to both sides. Watching the Parliamentary debate this afternoon, highlighted the details still yet to be ironed out. I would argue that, given the tabled review in four years time, that this is the beginning, rather than the end, of shaping our future trade deal with the EU. I still also think that the timing of the review will make this a big issue at the next EU, as the Tories seek to keep the UKIP swinging voters on side and those red wall voters too of course. Having said that, between now and then, the pandemic will end, and austerity mark 2 will hit. So who knows where the public mood will be in four years time. Will we even still be a UK in fact?

[TheCat]

What a nice way to close out a sh-tty year....with Blah Blah and myself in agreement on something:)

There is indeed hope for us all!!

[diable rouge]

*diable rouge enters room*

Hold my beer...

[TheCat]

:)

[Blah Blah]

TheCat Wrote:

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> What a nice way to close out a sh-tty year....with Blah Blah and myself in agreement on something:)

>

> There is indeed hope for us all!!

I did fall about laughing at this, but yes, it is true HA HA.

[Clutterqueen]

I've always found Helen Hayes very negative in her views on everything anyway, especially in her column in the South London Press which has become a Boris bashing newspaper lately. Boris has been doing his best to get us through this pandemic and now has to deal with the Brexit issue.

She often uses the words 'difficult', 'painful' and 'grief' which puts a downside on peoples views on things.

[Sue]

Clutterqueen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I've always found Helen Hayes very negative in her

> views on everything anyway, especially in her

> column in the South London Press which has become

> a Boris bashing newspaper lately. Boris has been

> doing his best to get us through this pandemic and

> now has to deal with the Brexit issue.

>

> She often uses the words 'difficult', 'painful'

> and 'grief' which puts a downside on peoples views

> on things.

What words would you use?

Boris's "best" is what many people would call "totally incompetent".

And what do you mean, "Boris now has to deal with the Brexit issue"? It was Boris amongst other Tories who were responsible for getting us into this position in the first place.

[Clutterqueen]

What position? The country voted overwhelming to leave the EU back in 2016 and that's what he and his government have finally done.

[diable rouge]

Clutterqueen Wrote:

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> What position? The country voted overwhelming to

> leave the EU back in 2016 and that's what he and

> his government have finally done.

It wasn't just about 'leaving the EU', it was just as much about how we left, and the type of Brexit that was sold at the referendum and what we've ended up with are mile's apart. He's failed in that respect. What's the point of a Prime Minister 'just doing his best' when his best is a crock of cack.

Sorry to break the unofficial EDF truce, but when people spout bollox like that...

*Picks up beer...*

[Blah Blah]

Clutterqueen Wrote:

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> The country voted overwhelming to leave the EU back in 2016....

Can't even be honest about that can you? It was the narrowest of wins.

[Sephiroth]

?and now has to deal with the Brexit issue.?

Poor Johnson. He couldn?t possibly have seen that one sneak up on him.

Could you tug your forelock any harder?

[TheCat]

> Sorry to break the unofficial EDF truce, but when

> people spout bollox like that...

>

> *Picks up beer...*

There was no EDF wide truce agreement. So there is no breach. It was more a bilateral BlahCat treaty.

Seems appropriate given the increasing importance bilateral agreements will form going forward.

[Trinnydad]

We all know that one's age has a strong influence on one's views on Brexit with the 60+ years demographic being most likely to be a "Leaver" largely because they are more familiar with the progression from the Treaty of Rome through to Lisbon.

There was an interesting article by IDS in the DT yesterday. I have reproduced a snippet taken from behind the pay wall

_______________________________

""I recall how we were assured this huge market on our doorstep would boost the economy, protect us from the extremes of Union power and end poor productivity. Yet by the time I was elected in 1992, those assurances rang hollow. For in the preceding two decades prior to the referendum, the UK economy actually grew at 3.4pc, even running a surplus with our EEC neighbours. Yet in the following two decades, our growth rate fell to an annual 1.76pc. Worse, our original surplus with the EU has become a trade deficit of ?100bn a year.

The Single European Act and the Maastricht treaty ? designed carefully, and hidden under the veneer of the market place ? were a powerful political power grab. In this, one-time Italian Communist Altiero Spinelli succeeded. The passage of the Maastricht treaty assured, through the massive increase in qualified majority voting, the huge push towards a genuine federal state. How ironic then that the UK government should claim that Maastricht was the high water mark of European federalism, when it was followed by the even greater advances of EU power through the Treaties of Amsterdam, Nice and Lisbon.

I learned early on not to trust what British governments claimed they achieved in negotiations with the EU; from the game set and match of John Major to Tony Blair?s so called exemption from the Charter of Fundamental Rights, they never stood up to examination.

And, as the next phase of the fight moved to the creation of the single currency and the prospect of our entry, many in the establishment claimed we had to join the currency or we would be left behind.""

____________________________

[Sephiroth]

?

I learned early on not to trust what British governments claimed they achieved in negotiations with the EU; from the game set and match of John Major to Tony Blair?s so called exemption from the Charter of Fundamental Rights, they never stood up to examination. ?

Snigger

[JohnL]

Clutterqueen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Boris has been

> doing his best to get us through this pandemic and

> now has to deal with the Brexit issue.

>

He hasn't though - he's coasting, he might be ill with long covid mind.

The gloating and lies in parliament are atrocious in my opinion - he should take questions to him seriously and answer them properly.

[Sephiroth]

Now, why would he do this, at this point in time

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/31/stanley-johnson-confirms-application-for-french-passport-on-eve-of-brexit

[Sephiroth]

Boris Johnson and UK not seen as joke by anyone but elitist remainers is it?

"Britain 'taken over by gamblers, liars, clowns and their cheerleaders'"

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/31/the-view-from-europe-uk-taken-over-by-gamblers-liars-clowns-and-their-cheerleaders

[TheCat]

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Boris Johnson and UK not seen as joke by anyone

> but elitist remainers is it?

>

> "Britain 'taken over by gamblers, liars, clowns

> and their cheerleaders'"

>

>

>

> https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/31/t

> he-view-from-europe-uk-taken-over-by-gamblers-liar

> s-clowns-and-their-cheerleaders

Come on mate, you can do better than this. What a weak piece of 'journalism'

This is the definition of contrived. You could cobble together a few quotes from thinktanks and academics to support almost any position on any issue you care to name.

[Sephiroth]

You?re correct. I?m just off to find that list of articles from countries praising Brexit. Back soon

[TheCat]

Such a poor argument..."You're wrong becuase I can quote people who also disagree with you". Your position has much stronger arguments than this, I'd recommend stop wasting your effort with this strategy.

In anycase...here's 2 relevant hits from just 10 seconds of googling.... (To be clear I don't necessarily support what's said in these articles, just highlighting how easy it is to find others who support almost any view)....

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/02/support-for-eurosceptic-parties-doubles-two-decades-across-eu

And from the Telegraph (pasted from behind payroll).....

The UK's deal with Europe is better than ours,' says Norway's leading party

The Centre Party's leader called for a review of Norway's EEA status

The Brexit deal negotiated by Lord Frost avoids tariffs on goods

The Brexit deal negotiated by Lord Frost avoids tariffs on goods CREDIT: BLOOMBERG

Richard Orange, Malmo

29 DECEMBER 2020 ? 5:27 PM

The party leading the polls in Norway has hailed the Brexit trade deal as "a better agreement" than the one that governs Norway's relations with the European Union, saying the UK has won "more freedom and more independence".

Marit Arnstad, parliamentary leader of the Centre Party, said in an interview on Tuesday that the UK had shown Norway could get a better deal than what it currently has as a member of the European Economic Area (EEA).

"From my point of view, the British have a better agreement than the EEA," she told the left-wing Klassekampen newspaper.

"They gain access to the internal market and common trade, which is desirable, but they do not have to be part of the dynamic regulatory development that places strong limits on individual countries' national policies."

The former agrarian party last month overtook the Norwegian Labour and Conservative parties in the polls, suggesting it will have a significant role after September's general election.

The party's leader, Trygve Slagsvold Vedum, has taken the broadly left-of-centre party in a sharply populist direction, sharpening its opposition to ties with the European Union, and railing against centralisation from Oslo.

Ms Arnstad said that after seeing the UK's success, her party would renew its calls for a public inquiry into possible changes to EEA membership.

"I think it highlights the need to study alternatives to the EEA," she said.

"The most difficult thing for Norway is that we are constrained in areas of national politics, and that is happening in more and more areas. The British have now taken back these powers, and that is extremely interesting."

The Centre Party's call for an inquiry is backed by the Socialist Left Party, with Heming Olaussen, head of the party's EEA committee, telling Klassekampen that the UK's deal was superior.

"The British have been released from the European Court of Justice. They are no longer subject to EU supremacy and must not accept any EU legislation in the future as we have to," he said.

"This agreement... safeguards national sovereignty in a better way than the EEA does for us."

Even after the Centre Party's recent surge in the polls, however, eurosceptic parties in Norway still lack a parliamentary majority.

Both Labour and the Conservatives are historically pro-EU, and Norway's Prime Minister Erna Solberg argued earlier this month that the UK's Brexit struggles should serve as a warning to Norwegian eurosceptics.

"Political parties in Norway that think it is a good idea to leave the EEA because we can negotiate new, better agreements should look more closely across the North Sea," she said.

[Sephiroth]

""You're wrong becuase I can quote people who also disagree with you""

That isn't my argument. You are wrong be cause Brexit is flawed and excecuted by some very flawed people for very bad reasons. Objectively

I'm just referencing earlier points where when people try to point out how others see the folly of the English decision, it was dismissed as remoaner elites and an article in the NYT

trust me - majority of everyone outside UK can see the folly

Citing an article about support for eurosceptic parties doesn't address anything. For a start, eurosceptic parties are generally toxic populists which happen to use the EU as a scapegoat (I mean, would YOU want to align yourself with most of them, eu policy aside?) - but the reality is that opinion poll after opinion poll shows support for EU across EU countries remaining strong

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/brexit-eu-survey-italy-ireland-portugal-eurosceptic-poll-a8888126.html

The Telegraph article - again, Norway have their own ongoing relationshi with the EU to address - they have long warned UK not to think the NOrway option was a good one. But the articlealo states "The Brexit deal negotiated by Lord Frost avoids tariffs on goods"

Which is only true as long as UK aligns with EU - and that won't be long will it?

[TheCat]

My comment was a pop at the article you posted. Which was contrived and poor. My criticism of it stands...as I said, Im sure I could find you an article with random quotes supporting just about anything.

I have little interest in revisiting what various people think about whether we should have left or remained. We've been down this road before, more than a few times....it's now the definition of Moot....

[Sephiroth]

Moot. But not over

And that?s the point.

England is still patting itself on the back while the rest of the world thinks they are fools for this

go to cafes, bars, bus stops across eu and you won?t need to rely on ?newspaper articles?

England pats itself on the back but is about to spend years looking for more access without any leverage. The vassal state it?s proponents said they would never accept