EU Trade Talks Thread

[Sephiroth]

a referendum is a referendum and stands separate from true democratic process - especially given the stakes of this referendum. And especially a country with relatively little experience of running them

If that referendum was fought on The Cat's definition above (vague but reasonable) and won it would be democratic. But that was never the offer

The offer was a whole stack of lies, and with no way of reversing it (despite Leavers like Mogg saying pre referendum that a confirmatory referendum would be likely) - and you can base your version of democracy on that if you want. But it doesn't make it so

Every other country (including UK countries like Scotland and NI) can see this. But English arrogance prevails, dresses it up and calls it democracy.

It's nothing of the sort

The next years and decades will have the same unhappy cohort bitching about the EU and other factors and never owning their shit. And the rest of us pay the price

[Sephiroth]

"That's democracy folks"

Nope

ability to reverse a stupid decision (Corbyn) is democracy

Locking such a monumental change of direction on a plan cheque referendum without any way to ratify it is not democracy.

[????]

We can go back in democratically. We voted out in a referendum and then a party saying they were going to get us our won a majority of 80. The majority of voters don?t want us in. I think it?s a mistake, but not as catastrophic as you do. But it is democracy.

[????]

Scotland and NI can vote to leave the UK democratically too. We live in a kingdom where the English by weight of population dominate, although they are underrepresented in seats, you can call it false English exceptionalism, you can say they?re wrong, and ultimately they can decide to leave but it?s still reflects the majority opinion of the UK.

[Sephiroth]

A general election against Corbyn, promising ?to get Brexit done? is a general election against Corbyn, lying about Brexit

It is in no way a democratic ratification of a referendum.

[????]

If we?d had a non/looney in charge of the Labour Party during the referendum , say Andy Burnham, I think it?s possible the referendum result would have been different BUT if we?d had Andy Burnham as leader at the last GE offering us another referendum to ratify you really think he?d have won? I don?t.

[KidKruger]

When information about the subject of a referendum is untrue, misleading, duplicitous, then it?s fraud masquerading as democracy.

What galls me is the lies were allowed, unabated, no accountability.

For me, Democracy is more honest / less disingenuous - the act of being able to vote is only a process, but it stands for nowt if the the air around it is poisoned.

[????]

That?s very noble of you and pie in the sky fantasy in all democracies. You?re vastly underestimating the role of emotion in democratic decisions.

[Sephiroth]

If Corbyn stood at the last GE with precisely the same Brexit policies as Johnson he would still have lost by 80 odd votes. It was a referendum on Corbyn

If burnham stood at last GE with a remain policy I suspect he would have lost but by by far fewer seats and we wouldn?t have had an anti democratic pro-rogue ing, international law breaking arrogant government in place

But another reason labour would have lost is because that brand is battered and Burnham would have been seen as a relative unknown versus The bad joke comic creation that is BORIS!!!

But any argument conflating a GE with a referendum is suspect

[TheCat]

KidKruger Wrote:

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> When information about the subject of a referendum

> is untrue, misleading, duplicitous, then it?s

> fraud masquerading as democracy.

> What galls me is the lies were allowed, unabated,

> no accountability.

> For me, Democracy is more honest / less

> disingenuous - the act of being able to vote is

> only a process, but it stands for nowt if the the

> air around it is poisoned.

Democracy in action....

https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/matthew-ellery/leave-lies-remainers-need_b_12191462.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAALWk0HjjILuOpSqnuQ1o0FLD2mF05QAMUpn8i8ehM_Aj3NzOkyJcM9d1lzCH8UzaX7r0W7ozgh4xlcuoblcGatAbx1H1uPO37oWqywEHTgT_zJJ1zZjI5i-9wtw3omNhETWDTZsrJfw8xNStEt6qXiu6XsCAAOV3CJYsfxT3f_Ni

[JohnL]

With a deal I don't think it will be catastrophic, just a slow wind down.

People outside the UK make little jokes (about Boris and his gang) and it's just accepted as normal that he's the joke leader of the world once Trump leaves. If we get pushed into doing silly autocratic things just to prove we're independent and have power it won't work out well, he needs to behave pragmatically without having a point to prove..

You can't go on a trajectory at 90 degrees to the way the rest of the world is moving and stay that way forever just because you can.

[KidKruger]

BS in action more like !

[????]

Boris is ?the Joke leader of the world?, I think you need to rephrase that?Boris is the joke leader of the Twitter world? , it?s just a narrative from those of a certain political persuasion reading retweeted articles from the New York Times

[Sephiroth]

Matthew Christing Ellery

Does that article genuinely give you comfort?

That opening "The UK gives the EU a gross contribution of ?350 million a week. This is not a lie, and it is an amount which could be spent on the NHS if the UK Government so wished." says it all

[Sephiroth]

"Boris is ?the Joke leader of the world?, I think you need to rephrase that?Boris is the joke leader of the Twitter world? , it?s just a narrative from those of a certain political persuasion reading retweeted articles from the New York Times"

still, years later, this is the narrow worldview you trot out at will

Those of us with friends and families across EU countries and beyond know what the world thinks

But forget twitter, NYT and your weird obsession with "elites" - you are coming on here trying to make a case for Johnson? I simply don't believe you. I think you are as embarrassed as the rest of us

[????]

You?re the one with a narrow worldview stuck in a bubbles, which is why you?re continually shocked by what happens after fter all these years I?ve family across Europe most of them don?t actually give much of a fuck. Not that anecdotal stories about our personal experience means SFA.

[????]

Still got to personalise it as always too. Your long held MO.

[Sephiroth]

anecdotal data is indeed just that

But Johnson is a joke, objectively

And you know it

[diable rouge]

If someone like Burnham had been Labour leader I think it highly likely that there would've been some kind of pact with the Libs and SNP. People quickly forget that the Tory 80-seat majority came courtesy of the Brexit party standing down i.e. a Leave pact.

As for the future, rather than thinking about an immediate 'rejoin' movement, there needs to be a change in the electoral system towards something like PR. It's in Labour's self-interest to go down this path, and Starmer should form a pact with the Libs and SNP to this effect, especially if it looks likely that NI and/or Scotland leaves the UK, because if that happened, Labour's chances of winning another GE under FPTP is zilcho..

[Sephiroth]

"Still got to personalise it as always too. Your long held MO."

in what way have I personalised it? Saying my view is that you know Johnson is a joke? Have I insulted you in any way? How have I personalised it?

This? "still, years later, this is the narrow worldview you trot out at will "

That's not really personalising it - that's just pointing out the fact that as a poster, you like to trot out a very tired line

[????]

This

still, years later, this is the narrow worldview you trot out at will

[????]

Your MO. You?ve been trotting out your shit for years too, I just don?t see the worth or the revelance of pointing that out.

[Sephiroth]

so you think that's worse than you talking to KK with "this patronising, elitist crap makes me laugh. You should stop believing what you read in The Guardian mate."

that's somehow not personalising it?

because I have to be honest and say "still, years later, this is the narrow worldview you trot out at will" has the benefit of

a) being more accurate - as KK has pointed out he is none of the things you accused him of

b) is less personal and insulting

[Sephiroth]

we were talking about Johnson being a joke. Which he is

I think you think he is too. And you could seek that common ground and talk about the problem the country faces because of his ineptitude

Instead you go with "Boris is ?the Joke leader of the world?, I think you need to rephrase that?Boris is the joke leader of the Twitter world? , it?s just a narrative from those of a certain political persuasion reading retweeted articles from the New York Times

"

Maybe I'm wrong - maybe you think he is a good leader and not a joke. In which case you could point out the ways. But it was you who went with the tired MO and then clutch your pearls and accuse others (me)

[diable rouge]

diable rouge Wrote:

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> Sephiroth Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > "I think it was TD just having s dig..."

> >

> > ah - silly me

>

> I never spotted that this was you, perhaps because

> you weren't having run-ins with ????...;-)

Spoke too soon!.. :) :) :)