EU Trade Talks Thread

[Sephiroth]

"Questio,....is there ANYTHING that the remainers on here see as POTENTIALLY positive going forward?"

What I like about this is the unspoken fear, if not panic as it dawns that the people he likes to debate with on here are all against him, but the people who agree with him are loons like TD

[JohnL]

Solving the cladding scandal fairly - there seems to be a lot of support on the Tory back benches.

[KidKruger]

A definite potential positive is we now know and have clear evidence of several things, which we could take the opportunity to address (or, conversely, ignore and slip further down the greasy pole to hell), namely:

- stupidity of offering ?advisory? referendums

- madness in allowing an under-educated population to decide critical facets of UK international policy (even Richard Dawkins suggested he was not qualified to vote on Brexit, so why was he given the choice on something he had no hope of understanding at the time of the referendum)

- dangers of allowing blatant lies in political campaigns

- media manipulation of huge swathes of the population for political ends

- dangers of populist leaders (also, see Trump for how bad it could get)

- the need to educate the population as to the actual history of the British empire and address blatant racism in the UK

- educate the population to understand and accept the value foreigners bring to the UK

- damage caused by rich elites driving international strategy for personal gain

But I find it laughable that Brexit voters ask ?Remainers? for the positives in implementing Brexit.

For me personally, this whole episode has enabled me to properly recognise the extent to which our population is uneducated and racist, at least I now know who I?m dealing with and how easily manipulated they are and how much damage they are willing to inflict on their own country (in the name of patriotism).

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Questio,....is there ANYTHING that the remainers

> on here see as POTENTIALLY positive going forward?

[????]

KidKruger Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> A definite potential positive is we now know and

> have clear evidence of several things, which we

> could take the opportunity to address (or,

> conversely, ignore and slip further down the

> greasy pole to hell), namely:

> - stupidity of offering ?advisory? referendums

> - madness in allowing an under-educated population

> to decide critical facets of UK international

> policy (even Richard Dawkins suggested he was not

> qualified to vote on Brexit, so why was he given

> the choice on something he had no hope of

> understanding at the time of the referendum)

> - dangers of allowing blatant lies in political

> campaigns

> - media manipulation of huge swathes of the

> population for political ends

> - dangers of populist leaders (also, see Trump for

> how bad it could get)

> - the need to educate the population as to the

> actual history of the British empire and address

> blatant racism in the UK

> - educate the population to understand and accept

> the value foreigners bring to the UK

> - damage caused by rich elites driving

> international strategy for personal gain

>

> But I find it laughable that Brexit voters ask

> ?Remainers? for the positives in implementing

> Brexit.

> For me personally, this whole episode has enabled

> me to properly recognise the extent to which our

> population is uneducated and racist, at least I

> now know who I?m dealing with and how easily

> manipulated they are and how much damage they are

> willing to inflict on their own country (in the

> name of patriotism).

>

>

> TheCat Wrote:

> ------------------------

> forward?

I voted remain but this patronising, elitist crap makes me laugh. You should stop believing what you read in The Guardian mate.

[JohnL]

The investigation and punishment of those involved with Cambridge Analytica seems to be going on with not much being reported in the UK. WE don't seem to be changing our electoral processes much however.

Steve Bannon has been ordered to testify ahead of his latest trial

https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/steve-bannon-interview-under-oath-ftc-investigation-cambridge-analytica/

and back in September Alexander Nix was banned from serving as a director for unethical practices around voting.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/sep/24/cambridge-analytica-directorship-ban-alexander-nix

[KidKruger]

Haha !!

I?m not elitist and don?t read the guardian.

So you?ll need to think of another angle on why I?m so misguided 🤣

We got a big problem and ain?t the EU.

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> KidKruger Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > A definite potential positive is we now know

> and

> > have clear evidence of several things, which we

> > could take the opportunity to address (or,

> > conversely, ignore and slip further down the

> > greasy pole to hell), namely:

> > - stupidity of offering ?advisory? referendums

> > - madness in allowing an under-educated

> population

> > to decide critical facets of UK international

> > policy (even Richard Dawkins suggested he was

> not

> > qualified to vote on Brexit, so why was he

> given

> > the choice on something he had no hope of

> > understanding at the time of the referendum)

> > - dangers of allowing blatant lies in political

> > campaigns

> > - media manipulation of huge swathes of the

> > population for political ends

> > - dangers of populist leaders (also, see Trump

> for

> > how bad it could get)

> > - the need to educate the population as to the

> > actual history of the British empire and

> address

> > blatant racism in the UK

> > - educate the population to understand and

> accept

> > the value foreigners bring to the UK

> > - damage caused by rich elites driving

> > international strategy for personal gain

> >

> > But I find it laughable that Brexit voters ask

> > ?Remainers? for the positives in implementing

> > Brexit.

> > For me personally, this whole episode has

> enabled

> > me to properly recognise the extent to which

> our

> > population is uneducated and racist, at least I

> > now know who I?m dealing with and how easily

> > manipulated they are and how much damage they

> are

> > willing to inflict on their own country (in the

> > name of patriotism).

> >

> >

> > TheCat Wrote:

> > ------------------------

> > forward?

>

> I voted remain but this patronising, elitist crap

> makes me laugh. You should stop believing what you

> read in The Guardian mate.

[Sephiroth]

"I?m not elitist and don?t read the guardian. "

Having met KK a few times, I'm pretty certain he is as far from a guardian reading, elitist as is possible. I would argue that in age and circumstance, KK and ???? are extremely similar

I think the "racist" thing is overegging that particular pudding (not to dismiss it entirely - it's all too obviously a significant part) but the thrust of his argument is fairly spot on

Despite all evidence of the last 4 years and beyond, the country still won't do anything but drive into the wall that is Brexit. Johnson can reel off a string of "victories" and lies and the country (England anyway) is effectively shrugging along. Concerns of Irish and Scottish voters count for naught. Saying you voted for Remain or Leave in 2016 matters little heading into 2021 - but if you feel comfortable about the last 5 years, you have a stronger stomach than me

[????]

Amazing how bloody plebs voting annoys the great and good of the enlightened folk

[Sephiroth]

Kinda hoping you coming back would bring more than the stale farts tbh

[diable rouge]

Getting rusty in his old age, missed the 1000th post...

[TheCat]

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "Questio,....is there ANYTHING that the remainers

> on here see as POTENTIALLY positive going

> forward?"

>

> What I like about this is the unspoken fear, if

> not panic as it dawns that the people he likes to

> debate with on here are all against him, but the

> people who agree with him are loons like TD

Unlike you my friend. I don't give a f@"k what other people who voted leave think, or what their motivations were. I dont need validation from others to justify my view. I have a view. It is my own. If you need to feel that others share your view to believe that it is justified, then you must not have a great deal of conviction in your own thoughts. I don't care what was on the side of a bus, or what colour my passport is, or what leaver politicians lied about. If any voter was so naive as to swallow soundbites unquestioned, then that is indeed tragic.

There's also no 'unspoken fear'. More just asking to determine if these 'debates' are even worth it. If you cant see any justification whatsoever in brexit (even if you don't agree) then you're not a great deal more informed, enlightened or considered than the ignorant foolish leavers these pages love to dump on....

[TheCat]

KidKruger Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> A

> For me personally, this whole episode has enabled

> me to properly recognise the extent to which our

> population is uneducated and racist, at least I

> now know who I?m dealing with and how easily

> manipulated they are and how much damage they are

> willing to inflict on their own country (in the

> name of patriotism).

>

KK, you contributions are normally well balanced and measured. But this is not one of those times. This comment is all that is wrong with this entire debate. To paraphrase, 'someone thinks differently to me, therefore they are either misled or an idiot'......

[TheCat]

Blah Blah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Until the sneering stops

HA!!!!!

[TheCat]

I have outlined this before a number of times. But perhaps worth rehashing at this juncture.

Amongst other reasons, I voted to leave the EU becuase I believe that the potential increased flexibility and nimbleness in policy will provide opportunities in the future. It is a broad, conceptual rationale. While I have done (and did do) a good amount of my own research, I believe it is reasonable to vote on concept, without necessarily knowing all the ins and outs of EU legislation and trade. It is not possible to provide specifics of what advantages that flexibility may provide, as these opportunities will only be evident as they arise. This outlook isn't uncommon is business, 'optionality' is often a desired long term driver of potential value. This is perhaps where many remainers have issue around 'tangible' benefits. Yes, unquestionably, the price of this is the additional 'friction' in trade. I was conscious of this when voting, I did not believe in 'unicorns'.

You may disagree, and feel that this rationale is much too vague for you, and lacking in specific detail. But that is a personal preference, and this constant dismissal of people who voted leave as misled rascist fools is just lazy and myopic. Why not acknowledge a reasonably justified differing view, even if you don't agree?

[Sephiroth]

Touchy

Now, I?m no psychologist but..

[JohnL]

Apparently The PM and Government are now looking for divergences from the EU to test the agreement in 2021.

Not for the good of people but just political reasons. He has these psychos in parliament and he has to prove his credentials to them rather than run the country.

[KidKruger]

Ooh Sepiroth, I?m intrigued now, seems like I only know your non-EDF self !

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "I?m not elitist and don?t read the guardian. "

>

> Having met KK a few times, I'm pretty certain he

> is as far from a guardian reading, elitist as is

> possible. I would argue that in age and

> circumstance, KK and ???? are extremely similar

>

> I think the "racist" thing is overegging that

> particular pudding (not to dismiss it entirely -

> it's all too obviously a significant part) but the

> thrust of his argument is fairly spot on

>

> Despite all evidence of the last 4 years and

> beyond, the country still won't do anything but

> drive into the wall that is Brexit. Johnson can

> reel off a string of "victories" and lies and the

> country (England anyway) is effectively shrugging

> along. Concerns of Irish and Scottish voters count

> for naught. Saying you voted for Remain or Leave

> in 2016 matters little heading into 2021 - but if

> you feel comfortable about the last 5 years, you

> have a stronger stomach than me

[KidKruger]

Sounds like you want to persist with this elitist drivel !

I don?t think I?m better than anybody by a country mile, and I?m all for people voting ? especially when they have clear and fair information on which to base their choice.

What happened was a huge amount of people fell for a list of baseless lies, probably because they wanted to as it fitted their lowest common denominator viewpoints / lies they?d lapped-up.

We will pay the price now and I accept that fully.

But let?s see that list of Brexit promises and against each the government can specify how they have delivered (or to what extent). It was never possible but half the voters fell for it anyway.

Sometimes I actually expect Jeremy Beadle to jump out from behind a corner shouting ?ha ha, got you!?, Such is the disparity between what was promised and what is going to be delivered.

Meanwhile there is very little discussion about that which makes it all the more Kafka-esque.

Utterly pathetic episode which only a struggling country with big problems could achieve.

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Amazing how bloody plebs voting annoys the great

> and good of the enlightened folk

[KidKruger]

You don?t need to paraphrase for me, I said what I think exactly in my post earlier.

So read that. That is my view. I don?t need you to translate for me.

If I ever think that people are wrong because they don?t agree with me, then I will say it like that, but until then - thanks for offering to paraphrase for me!

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> KidKruger Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > A

> > For me personally, this whole episode has

> enabled

> > me to properly recognise the extent to which

> our

> > population is uneducated and racist, at least I

> > now know who I?m dealing with and how easily

> > manipulated they are and how much damage they

> are

> > willing to inflict on their own country (in the

> > name of patriotism).

> >

>

> KK, you contributions are normally well balanced

> and measured. But this is not one of those times.

> This comment is all that is wrong with this entire

> debate. To paraphrase, 'someone thinks differently

> to me, therefore they are either misled or an

> idiot'......

[TheCat]

KidKruger Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> You don?t need to paraphrase for me, I said what I

> think exactly in my post earlier.

> So read that. That is my view. I don?t need you to

> translate for me.

> If I ever think that people are wrong because they

> don?t agree with me, then I will say it like that,

> but until then - thanks for offering to paraphrase

> for me!

>

> TheCat Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > KidKruger Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > A

> > > For me personally, this whole episode has

> > enabled

> > > me to properly recognise the extent to which

> > our

> > > population is uneducated and racist, at least

> I

> > > now know who I?m dealing with and how easily

> > > manipulated they are and how much damage they

> > are

> > > willing to inflict on their own country (in

> the

> > > name of patriotism).

> > >

> >

> > KK, you contributions are normally well

> balanced

> > and measured. But this is not one of those

> times.

> > This comment is all that is wrong with this

> entire

> > debate. To paraphrase, 'someone thinks

> differently

> > to me, therefore they are either misled or an

> > idiot'......

Well of course You don't need someone to translate your own thoughts. But for the benefit of the uneducated, rascist, easily manipulated populace, the paraphrase is helpful....

[Sephiroth]

"You may disagree, and feel that this rationale is much too vague for you, and lacking in specific detail. But that is a personal preference, and this constant dismissal of people who voted leave as misled rascist fools is just lazy and myopic. Why not acknowledge a reasonably justified differing view, even if you don't agree?"

But as ever it's not wether I, or BB, or KK or anyone else disagree with you that underpins this whole thing - it's the notion that there were many competing versions of Leave. And that competing is important - because lot's of people who voted leave will not be happy with your version

But you did win. And we have left - you would think you would be happier. But you aren't. You sure don't seem happy. Touchy, defensive, uncertain about the future.

This deal that was agreed (that no-one should trust for a second. fishermen are already kicking off about it and when more people realise the country is a rule taker they won't be happy either. Are they plebs for not realising this? I wouldn't call them that. But anyone insisting this is what they wanted and the other 18M agree with them,.... I am going to argue with them) - you think that deal would have won a referendum? It wouldn't. You don't have to care about that - but the majority that would vote against it do care

No-one is calling them plebs just for voting leave in 2016 and they aren't all racists (as ever it is worth reminding ourselves that most racists did vote leave - that's not the same thing. But it is notable. No seriously - it is. right?)

But the whole thing is a fraud. Bent as a two-bob note. Promises were made and you think all 18M people who voted are happy with what they got? What about the large number that changed their minds subsequently - are they plebs? Do they get a mechanism to register their disquiet?

[????]

I think it was the wrong decision but we live in a democracy.

Prior to the referendum a party that had a high number of eurosceptic MPS and members was pressuring it?s leadership for a referendum did enough pressuring to get a manifesto commitment to a referendum that?s how internal democracy works in a party. That party then won an election, unexpectedly, and likely because they offered that referendum. At that same election UKIP took 12% of the vote, although no MPs. In the euro elections UKIP won the most seats. There was a clear democratic call for a referendum. To argue otherwise and that ?it was to solve internal conservative problems? is to misunderstand democracy . They won, they?d win if it was offered again tomorrow. We need to get over it. I don?t think we?ll be going back either. But we?ll see.

[TheCat]

I'm broadly happy with the situation. Of course the future is uncertain, as it would be regardless of membership status of the EU.

My chippiness is purely a manifestation of frustration regarding the recurring hyperbole and subjectivity on these pages.

[????]

There we?re also an unfortunate set of circumstances in that the main opposition at the same time elected a moronic Marxist anti-European dinosaur as leader but again that?s democracy. Anyone who voted Corbyn as leader is equally moronic in my opinion.

[????]

But that?s democracy folks