EU Trade Talks Thread

[Sephiroth]

Given the concerns about supply chains, jobs, prices etc, this continued obsession about getting the vaccine a couple of weeks early is flimsy at best and just downright weird. In no way does it constitute any kind of genuine benefit

[TheCat]

Fine. Agreed. Thanks Sephiroth, but I can assure you that if I (or any other leaver on this forum) changed the subject on here as you have just done it would be labelled as 'whataboutery' or 'deflection' pretty quickly, and dismissed.

I won't do that though, as I think you're right. In anycase, it nice to have some acknowledgement though of 'at least one tangible benefit':)

[JohnL]

I think the UK as the "back of the class leader" would have done what it wanted with no pressure - without the UK some smaller nations may not.

[Blah Blah]

TheCat Wrote:

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> Its the total dismissal (and general mocking from

> some) of the nuance of these sort of real world

> differences (by most remain commentators on this

> thread when I mentioned it 2 weeks ago), which

> provides the perfect example of why I can't be

> bothered providing further details....becuase the

> truth is that many remainers on here really don't

> want to consider any opposing arguments on their

> merits....

Another predictable whine instead of admitting that tangible benefits are pretty hard to define right now. It is not mockery to ask about the subsidies farmers are going to lose, or the EU regional funding that places like Cornwall will lose, or the inflation that will hit low incomes families hardest on goods and food, or the 3 million jobs that depend on our current EU exports. Hundreds of existing trade agreements lost and how long do you suppose it will take to renegotiate those in the real world eh?

You quite frankly don't care about any of that because you have never cared. THAT is why you won't engage in the details, because you have no counter argument to any of it. It reminds of an interview where Farage was asked about the potential loss of the 3000 Airbus jobs in Wales, the only major employer in that town, and he answered simply with 'Airbus is an EU political project'. Didn't give a toss about those jobs. That is the the kind of disgraceful BS that sits behind no deal Brexit and those who push it hardest.

[TheCat]

Its now clear to me that you are by far the worst contributor on this thread. You assume what you have no idea of knowing ("You quite frankly don't care about any of that because you have never cared"...I mean honestly, the arrogance required to say that about someone that you know nothing about is quite astounding). You are extremely prejudiced against people making comments you don't agree with. You don't reply when the direction of an argument goes against you, or when a reasonable point it made that goes against your narrative, you do what you've just done now, and bring up a thousand other issues that need to be addressed to avoid making eleven the smallest concessions. You demand details from everyone else, but never supply your own (tell me blah blah, what sector do you work in? Please detail me your personal circumstances to I can judge whether I deem you worthy of commenting on these issues?, What is your forecast for GDP post brexit? I know you didn't vote leave, but no doubt you've done detailed and extensive research to have absolute certainty that there is 'not one' benefit to such a multifaceted transition). You constantly label others as deflectors - but I'll hand it to you, you actually are the master at it...wether it be through avoidance or whataboutery. Congrats and good luck.

[Trinnydad]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Its now clear to me that you are by far the worst

> contributor on this thread. You assume what you

> have no idea of knowing ("You quite frankly don't

> care about any of that because you have never

> cared"...I mean honestly, the arrogance required

> to say that about someone that you know nothing

> about is quite astounding). You are extremely

> prejudiced against people making comments you

> don't agree with. You don't reply when the

> direction of an argument goes against you, or when

> a reasonable point it made that goes against your

> narrative, you do what you've just done now, and

> bring up a thousand other issues that need to be

> addressed to avoid making eleven the smallest

> concessions. You demand details from everyone

> else, but never supply your own (tell me blah

> blah, what sector do you work in? Please detail me

> your personal circumstances to I can judge whether

> I deem you worthy of commenting on these issues?,

> What is your forecast for GDP post brexit? I know

> you didn't vote leave, but no doubt you've done

> detailed and extensive research to have absolute

> certainty that there is 'not one' benefit to such

> a multifaceted transition). You constantly label

> others as deflectors - but I'll hand it to you,

> you actually are the master at it...wether it be

> through avoidance or whataboutery. Congrats and

> good luck.

I'm with you Cat all the way. It is time Blah Blah established his credentials. I would guess he doesnt actually work but is "lap top researcher" who revels in the mocking put downs on those he disagrees with. Second thoughts... probably just another a lib-dem dreamer.

He/she has much in common with the arch remainer MPs (such as Anna Soubry, Sam Gyimah, Dominic Grieve etc) who destroyed the last parliament with eloquent and impassioned nonsense. They later found to their cost that the following election endorsed the Brexit camp with a resounding majority. They are all now yesterday's people.

Hang on in there Cat, don't cop out and let BB claim another victim.

[Sephiroth]

How...how did I change the subject?

[TheCat]

Sephiroth Wrote:

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> How...how did I change the subject?

My apols. Perhaps I let my frustrations with other posters get the better of me with a hasty response. And I read you mention of 'jobs, prices etc' as a change of subject from the vaccine point being discussed. In anycase, I agreed with you on its relative importance, so on this occasion we can 'agree to agree':)

[JohnL]

Trinnydad Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> MPs (such as Anna Soubry, Sam Gyimah, Dominic

> Grieve etc) who destroyed the last parliament with

> eloquent and impassioned nonsense. They later

> found to their cost that the following election

> endorsed the Brexit camp with a resounding

> majority. They are all now yesterday's people.

Yesterdays People - that means as most of us have never been in parliament are we are all never people

..... or people of nowhere. Seriously people like Alistair Campbell who is politically yesterdays man have moved on to support many other projects. I do however note they are all Tories - is this a traitor thing ?

[JohnL]

If everyone voted into Parliament has to follow party lines then I can't see the point of voting for people - we may as well just vote for virtual seats (like the american electoral college which until this year wasn't a real debating body but a rubber stamp)

What really is the point of MPs if they don't have some kind of individual view.

I'm sure Amazon could devise us a voting chamber without human beings where everyone votes as told and there's no expenses either.

[Sephiroth]

Meanwhile, away from the empty biscuit tin full of ?sovrin-T virus?, and in the real world

https://www.vice.com/en/article/dy8x77/this-corner-of-england-is-ground-zero-for-brexit-chaos-and-it-literally-reeks-of-piss

Now, on the one hand, part of this will get better as everyone gets used to the new rules

On the other hand it won?t get much better and will remain a lot worse than what we have been used to for decades.

All pain. No gain

[Blah Blah]

Trinnydad Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm with you Cat all the way. It is time Blah Blah established his credentials. I would guess he doesnt actually work but is "lap top researcher" who revels in the mocking put downs on those he disagrees with. Second thoughts... probably just another a lib-dem dreamer.

>

> He/she has much in common with the arch remainer MPs (such as Anna Soubry, Sam Gyimah, Dominic Grieve etc) who destroyed the last parliament with eloquent and impassioned nonsense. They later found to their cost that the following election endorsed the Brexit camp with a resounding majority. They are all now yesterday's people.

>

> Hang on in there Cat, don't cop out and let BB claim another victim.

And yet more illustration of my point. No interest in engaging with the real world impacts but resorting to infantile sneering instead.

Those MPs were fighting because they could see what what was coming, what IS coming. The following election was as much a rejection of Corbyn as anything else. And when the sh+t hits the fan, as it will with no deal, Boris will be toast. We will be scrambling for a deal, ANY deal by the summer. The EU knows it, which is why it sees no need to cave into every demand of the UK.

And the money wasted on this folly so far? More than the total of our membership payments to the EU over our entire 40 year membership. Have a think about that while you are at it.

[Trinnydad]

Blah Blah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Trinnydad Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > I'm with you Cat all the way. It is time Blah

> Blah established his credentials. I would guess he

> doesnt actually work but is "lap top researcher"

> who revels in the mocking put downs on those he

> disagrees with. Second thoughts... probably just

> another a lib-dem dreamer.

> >

> > He/she has much in common with the arch remainer

> MPs (such as Anna Soubry, Sam Gyimah, Dominic

> Grieve etc) who destroyed the last parliament with

> eloquent and impassioned nonsense. They later

> found to their cost that the following election

> endorsed the Brexit camp with a resounding

> majority. They are all now yesterday's people.

> >

> > Hang on in there Cat, don't cop out and let BB

> claim another victim.

>

> And yet more illustration of my point. No interest

> in engaging with the real world impacts but

> resorting to infantile sneering instead.

>

> Those MPs were fighting because they could see

> what what was coming, what IS coming. The

> following election was as much a rejection of

> Corbyn as anything else. And when the sh+t hits

> the fan, as it will with no deal, Boris will be

> toast. We will be scrambling for a deal, ANY deal

> by the summer. The EU knows it, which is why it

> sees no need to cave into every demand of the UK.

>

>

> And the money wasted on this folly so far? More

> than the total of our membership payments to the

> EU over our entire 40 year membership. Have a

> think about that while you are at it.

@TheCat,

I would guess he's a vegan, bearded, Green, cyclist and part time social worker whose posts are extremely judgemental- frequently negative and condemnatory. Many are gushingly praiseworthy of those whose views he agrees with - which suggests a degree of insecurity and possible persecution complex. But then I'm not a psychologist.

[Sephiroth]

Interesting that the cat has singled out blah as the worst contributor to this thread when trinnydad is off posting completely made up, projectionist, xenophobic and irrelevant nonsense

Still, it all beats dealing with the reality of what?s happening

[diable rouge]

Trinnydad Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I would guess he's a vegan, bearded, cyclist and

> part time social worker whose posts are extremely

> judgemental...

And this year's award for Total Lack Of Self-Awareness, goes to...

[Blah Blah]

Quite Sephiroth. Trinnydad is now trolling of course - doubling down. Any interest in debate on the actual points left that one some time ago.

Detail has been the one thing guaranteed to bring the froth out in brexiters and expose the folly of the cult they all subscribe to. They just do not care about the costs, really they don't.

[keano77]

Post-Brexit trade deal won?t happen unless UK respects EU sovereignty, warns Michel Barnier

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/post-brexit-trade-deal-wont-happen-unless-uk-respects-eu-sovereignty-warns-michel-barnier-stmqpdxfm

Strange how this fundamental concept of political theory keeps popping up considering how foolishly some people on here dismiss it as being outmoded.

I wonder what President Xi, for example, would think of those who say there?s no place for sovereignty in an world inter-connected by trade?

[JohnL]

EU sovereignty consists of pooled sovereignty of it's nations being better pooled than retained.

China and the US are both Super Powers anyway - the issue for us is what do medium sized countries do ? Australia and Canada have large territories and a large reserve of natural resources. What model can we follow - Singapore, Norway, Switzerland.

[tomdhu]

JohnL Wrote:

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> EU sovereignty consists of pooled sovereignty of

> it's nations being better pooled than retained.

>

"Pooled sovereignty". That's just a pseudonym for surrendered sovereignty. As demonstrated consistently since the Lisbon Treaty it carries no influence or benefit. Some benefits from "Pooling" may only be attained when progression to a federal system is achieved.

https://www.dailyglobe.co.uk/comment/pooled-sovereignty-is-an-oxymoron/

[JohnL]

"True sovereignty is reflected not in the power of making laws ? as a legal definition would have it ? but in the ability to control outcomes and respond to the fundamental needs of the people: what John Locke defines as their ?peace, safety, and public good?.[3] The ability to make independent decisions does not guarantee countries such control. In other words, independence does not guarantee sovereignty."

https://www.ecb.europa.eu/press/key/date/2019/html/ecb.sp190222~fc5501c1b1.en.html

[tomdhu]

JohnL Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "True sovereignty is reflected not in the power of

> making laws ? as a legal definition would have it

> ? but in the ability to control outcomes and

> respond to the fundamental needs of the people:

> what John Locke defines as their ?peace, safety,

> and public good?.[3] The ability to make

> independent decisions does not guarantee countries

> such control. In other words, independence does

> not guarantee sovereignty."

>

> https://www.ecb.europa.eu/press/key/date/2019/html

> /ecb.sp190222~fc5501c1b1.en.html

Well, the ECB is hardly an unbiased commentator, is it.

It is complicit in the erosion and ultimate demise of sovereignty for individual nations.

[JohnL]

LOL I suspected you may say that :)

It's too close to Xmas to search too hard.

[Sephiroth]

Absolute mad that the same leave supporters in the middle of all this are doubling down

There has been a complete uncoupling from reality.

But I already know who the headbangers are. They are beyond help

It?s the more ?rational? actors nodding this along that has me in despair.

[diable rouge]

Just like Brexit, if you ask Leave voters what sovereignty means to them, you won't get the same answer.

And, as has been said numerous times, the minute you start negotiating trade deals, certain aspects of a country's sovereignty is on the negotiating table...

[zerkalo]

The same argument about bias would apply to the Daily Globe link posted above. That's from their website. Obviously not an independent organisation.

About Us

The CRCC was founded in April 2017 to offer a united front for the numerous Pro-Commonwealth, Realms and CANZUK groups that had greatly expanded and blossomed following the UK?s vote to leave the EU. Based off an idea of Isaac Anderson of the Daily Globe, the project expanded to gain the support of the largest and most influential CANZUK group, CANZUK International, The United Commonwealth, a Canadian based group aiming to spread the word and expand public knowledge of the Commonwealth. The group?s membership includes the historic and newly resurgent United Commonwealth Society, an offshoot from the Imperial Federation League, which had so greatly contributed to the creation of the Commonwealth in the late 19th Century.

tomdhu Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> JohnL Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > "True sovereignty is reflected not in the power

> of

> > making laws ? as a legal definition would have

> it

> > ? but in the ability to control outcomes and

> > respond to the fundamental needs of the people:

> > what John Locke defines as their ?peace,

> safety,

> > and public good?.[3] The ability to make

> > independent decisions does not guarantee

> countries

> > such control. In other words, independence does

> > not guarantee sovereignty."

> >

> >

> https://www.ecb.europa.eu/press/key/date/2019/html

>

> > /ecb.sp190222~fc5501c1b1.en.html

>

> Well, the ECB is hardly an unbiased commentator,

> is it.

>

> It is complicit in the erosion and ultimate demise

> of sovereignty for individual nations.