EU Trade Talks Thread

[TheCat]

Blah Blah Wrote:

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> leave voters just took away the

> dreams of generations of people who might want to

> live, work or study in any one of 27 other

> nations,

I just want to pick up on this point....UK citizens dreams of one day moving to live in an EU nation are now crushed? This does get trotted out a lot as a major downside of Brexit...and it strikes me as amore of a minor annoyance in the grand scheme of things, rather than a major criticism.

Couple of points....there's around 1m UK nationals living in the EU excluding Ireland (and around half of that number are retirees)...so it hardly seems like there are 'generations' of UK nationals who's dreams are being crushed...these are small numbers in the context of a 67m population.

Secondly, if it really is someone's 'dream' to go live, work or study in another country, then yes (for the EU countries specifically) it wont be logistically quite as easy as previously, but if people are giving up on their dreams just because they cant be bothered to go through a more complicated visa/immigration process (acknowledging that for retirees it will be much harder given stage of life), then it couldn't have been much of a deep held 'dream' in the first place...

As an aside, there are more UK nationals living in Australia (~1.3m) than in the entire EU....

BRITS ABROAD: THE TOP COUNTRIES

Country name Resident Britons

Australia 1,300,000

Spain 761,000

United States 678,000

Canada 603,000

Ireland 291,000

New Zealand 215,000

South Africa 212,000

France 200,000

[Sephiroth]

There is some merit in this point - of all the downsides of Brexit, the practical outcome of this is RELATIVELY minimal

But that said - it is A loss of freedom. We don't all want to go and live in Spain- , but it is nice to know we could at any point. And that has gone. Or at least the version without hassle has gone

Plus travel generally - it has been easier and more pleasurable to hop on a train or plane to Paris than to NY - will have more friction

Which isn't end of the world stuff - but it's unnecessary. And if it came with a side order of benefits then we could see the point.

But as ever - those benefits are intangible, elusive and are, to date, still in the minds of it's proponents

[zerkalo]

Because for many people (not for everyone, perhaps not for yourself) this means a loss of tangible, real rights and opportunities in exchange for something abstract and vague such as sovereignty. It's so much more than mere annoyance. Young British people can't do Erasmus in Australia.

TheCat Wrote:

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> Blah Blah Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > leave voters just took away the

> > dreams of generations of people who might want

> to

> > live, work or study in any one of 27 other

> > nations,

>

>

> I just want to pick up on this point....UK

> citizens dreams of one day moving to live in an EU

> nation are now crushed? This does get trotted out

> a lot as a major downside of Brexit...and it

> strikes me as amore of a minor annoyance in the

> grand scheme of things, rather than a major

> criticism.

>

>

[KidKruger]

Well if we're going to go down the route of what Brexit impact is ACTUALLY and UNDENIABLY catastrophic, there's probably nothing to complain about right ?

I mean, interstate's rates, food shortages/delays, lorries backing-up at ports, inflation, limited travel freedom, none of it kills us, right ?

Therefore Brexit is harmless.

Right ?!

Next level BS.

[TheCat]

KidKruger Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Well if we're going to go down the route of what

> Brexit impact is ACTUALLY and UNDENIABLY

> catastrophic, there's probably nothing to complain

> about right ?

> I mean, interstate's rates, food shortages/delays,

> lorries backing-up at ports, inflation, limited

> travel freedom, none of it kills us, right ?

> Therefore Brexit is harmless.

> Right ?!

>

> Next level BS.

Come on KK...it's 'next level BS' to bring up a specific point about brexit which isn't quite as bad as some of the more exaggerated commentary suggests?

I get overall most people on here disagree with the whole thing, but surely not every comment needs to discuss every aspect of the issue? There's 30 pages of comments on this thread swinging between specific minuatae and big picture and back again....

[diable rouge]

Sephiroth Wrote:

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> But that said - it is A loss of freedom. We don't

> all want to go and live in Spain- , but it is nice

> to know we could at any point. And that has gone.

> Or at least the version without hassle has gone

It's certainly been interesting watching the so-called libertarian right/free-speechers/free-thinkers etc, squirm and convolute their way around willingly removing this freedom from their fellow citizens, making it more difficult to travel, work, study, retire in the EU. It's true that logistically it will still be possible i.e. travel, but the real stumbling block will be financial, namely having to take out costly private health insurance to cover the loss of reciprocal access to health services, especially for those who want to work/live in the EU. Freedom of movement helped democratize travel and the opportunity to work/live etc. To borrow a phrase, it was for the many not the few...

[diable rouge]

During lockdown I watched some episodes of A Place in the Sun, and I was struck by how many 'ordinary' people were looking to buy a holiday home or permanent residence and sample life abroad (Before someone accuses me of being a condescending metropolitan elite for using the term 'ordinary', I consider myself to be 'ordinary' in that I come from a typical 'working class' background, born in a council house, one grandad a postman, the other a milkman, and so on).

Anyways, the point being these weren't necessarily people that were well to do. Their budgets were limited, perhaps a small inheritance, someone's life savings, or selling up and getting more for their money. It then also struck me that my own personal forays to Europe coincided around the time FoM was introduced, and the subsequent opening of Eurostar and low cost flights. Suddenly it became no different, time or cost wise, to travelling back 'oop north'. The possibility of living and buying abroad that previously 'wasn't for the likes of me', was now more of a reality. I think when BB refers to 'generations' she's not specifically talking about current numbers, but generations to come. For them opportunities have narrowed...

[malumbu]

But then there is a contradiction. So many that enjoyed travelling to the continent voted to leave. Based on a limited sample of Tamworth, where immigration played a part in the decision. And the love/hate relationship with the French - with both sides 'hating' each other but loving to visit each others countries. I suppose even worse for Germany, where we pretended to hate them but we are almost the same people. Sorry, not exactly earth shattering.

[diable rouge]

That's because they were told that they wouldn't lose any of the benefits of being in the EU. A lot of them genuinely believed that we would stop EU immigration but still be allowed to visit the EU freely. And when pointed out that wasn't the case it was dismissed as Project Fear.

It was an issue the Remain campaign failed to address as well as the benefits of EU immigration, i.e. they made a positive net contribution to the system and were not a drain on the health service etc. Not surprising when you consider most EU immigrants were young, healthy, hard working, while we exported a lot of dufffers who would normally be clogging up the post office...

[Trinnydad]

Glad to be shot of the lethargic heaving bureaucratic mess that is the EU having learned from the media today that the very earliest the will commence Covid vaccinations will be 27th December and could well be pushed back into January.

[diable rouge]

Keep up Trinny, we've already had the discussion that the UK can implement the roll-out vaccine while still an EU member, EU rules allows for such a situation...

[JohnL]

It's this we need to match not the first few vaccinations - can't judge until the rollouts are in progress but persistent and steady wins in my view - I dread the UK saying they've run out or didn't buy enough or didn't store them according to instructions - you half expect it these days ...

"France has already pre-ordered 200 million doses of coronavirus vaccines, Castex added.

The government is hoping to give jabs to around one million people in nursing homes during January and February, and then a further 14-15 million people in the wider population between March and June."

https://www.france24.com/en/france/20201216-france-may-start-covid-19-vaccinations-in-last-week-of-december-pm-says

[zerkalo]

Too right! Here is an example of brexit dividends all of us can already reap from leaving this lethargic bureaucratic EU mess!

Trinnydad Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Glad to be shot of the lethargic heaving

> bureaucratic mess that is the EU

[Blah Blah]

diable rouge Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It's certainly been interesting watching the

> so-called libertarian

> right/free-speechers/free-thinkers etc, squirm and

> convolute their way around willingly removing this

> freedom from their fellow citizens, making it more

> difficult to travel, work, study, retire in the

> EU. It's true that logistically it will still be

> possible i.e. travel, but the real stumbling block

> will be financial, namely having to take out

> costly private health insurance to cover the loss

> of reciprocal access to health services,

> especially for those who want to work/live in the

> EU. Freedom of movement helped democratize travel

> and the opportunity to work/live etc. To borrow a

> phrase, it was for the many not the few...

UK students who want to study in the EU will now face three times the level of student fees they had to pay as an EU member, so no, the cost isn't just health insurance etc. There will be genuine barriers to a range of things because of sudden increase in cost. And still, not a single leave voter has given a single tangible benefit that will be brought to their life by leaving the EU. not one.

[JohnL]

A Covid Denier I notice.

And he believes the US Election was fixed too LOL.

That's this guy by the way - @Simes43

- so if he believes all the vaccines are a fake how are you criticising the roll out of a fake vaccine

[Sephiroth]

the other side of the "but it really won't be a big deal if you really still want to go and live in an EU country" is that it presupposes it's just a few forms

But remember the EU didn't vote to to Leave - the UK did. And one of the big reasons for that was to take back control of borders - a lot of people really want to say no to some people moving to UK.

So obviously that is going to apply in reverse - some people who could move to an EU country will actually no longer be able to do so, no matter how many forms they fill in

Dress it up any way you want - but it is losing freedom

[Blah Blah]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I get overall most people on here disagree with

> the whole thing, but surely not every comment

> needs to discuss every aspect of the issue?

> There's 30 pages of comments on this thread

> swinging between specific minuatae and big picture

> and back again....

But it is not just about disagreement, it is years of endless avoidance from people like you, who ignore and gloss over the real impacts that are going to affect real people's livelihoods and jobs and prospects. You won't do details. You won't say how long you think people should have to put up with the impacts. You won't even say if you work in a sector that will be affected or not. So spare us yet more vacuous deflection.

The fact is that up to 3 million jobs are supported or dependent on our exports to the EU, and many of them in regions where lack of jobs are a real issue. Many more sectors are dependent on collaboration, funding, shared intelligence, data etc etc. All of that is going to take a hit, and there is no indication that this government is even going to replace farming subsidies in full or regional investment lost. They refuse to guarantee it. You can avoid the discussion now, but when it all becomes real from the New Year onwards, there will be no place to hide then.

[Blah Blah]

Trinnydad Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Glad to be shot of the lethargic heaving

> bureaucratic mess that is the EU having learned

> from the media today that the very earliest the

> will commence Covid vaccinations will be 27th

> December and could well be pushed back into

> January.

As pointed out to you, the EU is not stopping any country from starting the vaccine if they want to. Hungary has bought the Russian one already for example.

But also, you might want to consider that it is going to be summer before the UK gets to vaccinating the over fifties even, and that is if we manage 1 million vaccinations a week. The total number of over 70's, vulnerable, and front line workers that have to be vaccinated first is 23 million. So that puts any complaint about differentials in vaccine programs into perspective. It is not when you start that really matters, but how quickly and wide you can roll out. The EU has decided on a ready to go bigger mass rollout as opposed to a drip feed ramp up. There is sense to that, especially if the vaccine has limited immunity before requiring boosters.

[TheCat]

Blah Blah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> diable rouge Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > It's certainly been interesting watching the

> > so-called libertarian

> > right/free-speechers/free-thinkers etc, squirm

> and

> > convolute their way around willingly removing

> this

> > freedom from their fellow citizens, making it

> more

> > difficult to travel, work, study, retire in the

> > EU. It's true that logistically it will still

> be

> > possible i.e. travel, but the real stumbling

> block

> > will be financial, namely having to take out

> > costly private health insurance to cover the

> loss

> > of reciprocal access to health services,

> > especially for those who want to work/live in

> the

> > EU. Freedom of movement helped democratize

> travel

> > and the opportunity to work/live etc. To borrow

> a

> > phrase, it was for the many not the few...

>

> UK students who want to study in the EU will now

> face three times the level of student fees they

> had to pay as an EU member, so no, the cost isn't

> just health insurance etc. There will be genuine

> barriers to a range of things because of sudden

> increase in cost. And still, not a single leave

> voter has given a single tangible benefit that

> will be brought to their life by leaving the EU.

> not one.

I don't know about that. Watching you twist yourself into knots, while making this same ridiculous, myopic claim over and over again is tangibly changing my life I can assure you.

[Trinnydad]

Blah Blah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Trinnydad Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Glad to be shot of the lethargic heaving

> > bureaucratic mess that is the EU having learned

> > from the media today that the very earliest the

> > will commence Covid vaccinations will be 27th

> > December and could well be pushed back into

> > January.

>

> As pointed out to you, the EU is not stopping any

> country from starting the vaccine if they want to.

> Hungary has bought the Russian one already for

> example.

>

Who are you trying to kid! Hungary has bought the Russian vaccine to placate its population as Brussels would not approve despatch of vaccines under their coordinated approval and distribution regulations. They got it cheap from Putin as he wants to sow dissent amongst EU members.

If you dont believe me read this:-

https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-countries-may-go-their-own-way-on-coronavirus-vaccinations/

It's not just us that's frustrated with Brussels.

[JohnL]

It sounds a bit like Boris's old reports in the Telegraph but no ham sandwiches will be allowed to be taken into the EU after 31 December but you can take some sweets says the Guardian

"Personal imports of certain products of animal or plant origin will be prohibited from 11pm on 31 December. The ban will also apply to tourists travelling to the EU. The rules will permit the transit of sweets and chocolate, preserving the long association between truckers and Yorkie bars.

The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs advised transport representatives of the ban this week and gave the specific example in its updated guidance of an ordinary sandwich.

?From 1 January 2021 you will not be able to bring POAO (products of animal origin) such as those containing meat or dairy (eg a ham and cheese sandwich) into the EU,? the official guidance states."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/18/lorry-drivers-heading-to-eu-face-ham-sandwich-ban

[Blah Blah]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I don't know about that. Watching you twist

> yourself into knots, while making this same

> ridiculous, myopic claim over and over again is

> tangibly changing my life I can assure you.

And there you prove my point perfectly. Never interested in any real world detail. The typical Brexit voter deflection we have had to put up with for the last four years. Like I say, you will have nowhere to hide in a no deal Britain.

[JohnL]

Trinnydad Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Blah Blah Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Trinnydad Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > Glad to be shot of the lethargic heaving

> > > bureaucratic mess that is the EU having

> learned

> > > from the media today that the very earliest

> the

> > > will commence Covid vaccinations will be 27th

> > > December and could well be pushed back into

> > > January.

> >

> > As pointed out to you, the EU is not stopping

> any

> > country from starting the vaccine if they want

> to.

> > Hungary has bought the Russian one already for

> > example.

> >

>

> Who are you trying to kid! Hungary has bought the

> Russian vaccine to placate its population as

> Brussels would not approve despatch of vaccines

> under their coordinated approval and distribution

> regulations. They got it cheap from Putin as he

> wants to sow dissent amongst EU members.

> If you dont believe me read this:-

> https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-countries-may-g

> o-their-own-way-on-coronavirus-vaccinations/

>

> It's not just us that's frustrated with Brussels.

They're frustrated but they won't leave as they've seen what happens. We also would have had the right to do this as a member too :)

https://euobserver.com/coronavirus/150228

[Blah Blah]

Trinnydad Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Who are you trying to kid! Hungary has bought the

> Russian vaccine to placate its population as

> Brussels would not approve despatch of vaccines

> under their coordinated approval and distribution

> regulations. They got it cheap from Putin as he

> wants to sow dissent amongst EU members.

> If you dont believe me read this:-

> https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-countries-may-g

> o-their-own-way-on-coronavirus-vaccinations/

>

> It's not just us that's frustrated with Brussels.

Keep telling yourself that if you must.

[TheCat]

Here's a real world detail for you Blah Blah....as I've said before....The legal mechanism exists for any EU country to approve the vaccine ahead of the EU approval. But political pressure from the EU means that no EU nation has done so....and the fact that we are leaving transition in 2 weeks mean we're not subject to that pressure, or don't care about it.

Its the total dismissal (and general mocking from some) of the nuance of these sort of real world differences (by most remain commentators on this thread when I mentioned it 2 weeks ago), which provides the perfect example of why I can't be bothered providing further details....becuase the truth is that many remainers on here really don't want to consider any opposing arguments on their merits....