EU Trade Talks Thread

[Trinnydad]

KidKruger Wrote:

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> Pride, hatred, resentment, and humiliation aside -

>

It certainly would be fantastic to cast these sentiments aside but they are deep seated - particularly with the French.

The intense feelings and divisions within the UK boiled up big time when the Maasticht and Lisbon treaties were being discussed.

If only they had stuck with the European Economic Community with no further centralisation and bureaucracy then we wouldn't be having all this drama and angst now. The career bureaucrats in Brussels took the project much too far.

[KidKruger]

Trinny

All that?s happened is England shot the U.K. in the foot, probably both feet, on purpose.

No-one else to blame for the hell to follow this next couple of decades.

[Seabag]

KidKruger Wrote:

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> Trinny

>

> All that?s happened is England shot the U.K. in

> the foot, probably both feet, on purpose.

> No-one else to blame for the hell to follow this

> next couple of decades.

I thinks some people feel better blaming the Germans/French/EU rather than take responsibility for where we?re at.

Though we?ve all seen consecutive UK governments blunder/cock up repetitively, they?re still convinced they?ll pull off some kind of wonder promise for the UK.

Hmmmm....

[Trinnydad]

Whatever the outcome of the current hiatus, the EU is unlikely to exist long term in its current form.

The fringe countries ( read less prosperous) such as Poland, Hungary, Greece etc will be gradually squeezed out and the industrialised North-West founder nations (Germany, France, Belgium, Netherlands) will progress towards a tightly knit federal system. Likely dubbed the FSE - Federal States of Europe.

[Blah Blah]

You have no way of knowing how the EU will evolve going forward, and of course it will change. Everything does, even if it is slow to do so. I don't what is worse, people bleating on about Empire and 'making Britain great again' and those latching on to equally nonsensical Franco-German desires for an Empire. These are the ideas that lead to conflicts and war historically too.

[Sephiroth]

"Whatever the outcome of the current hiatus, the EU is unlikely to exist long term in its current form. "

This is a common trope in brexit circles but has no basis in reality. It was also mentioned in the Blake article posted by J&B

It just gets trotted out - never with any genuine facts to back it up. But every warning from Business, from economists, from other countries, from border staff about impact of Brexit gets ignored - despite being based on people who know what they are talking about

[zerkalo]

Trinnydad Wrote:

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> Whatever the outcome of the current hiatus, the EU

> is unlikely to exist long term in its current

> form.

>

Quite the contrary I would argue. The EU in its current form, despite all the challenges it is facing, internal and external, is far more likely to continue long after the UK may be broken up following a Scottish independence.

[snowy]

Trinnydad Wrote:

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> snowy Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > It?s a different view, and an idiotic one.

>

> I guess you are too young have been around in the

> immediate post WW2 period to appreciate the

> sentiments then. This snip from Wiki might help

> you understand the ant-war sentiment at the

> time......

>

> ""The ECSC was first proposed by French foreign

> minister Robert Schuman on 9 May 1950 as a way to

> prevent further war between France and Germany. He

> declared his aim was to "make war not only

> unthinkable but materially impossible"[3] which

> was to be achieved by regional integration, of

> which the ECSC was the first step.""

>

> The ECSC morphed into the Common Market (a very

> sensible idea) however the dreamers in Brussels

> wanted to fast track towards political integration

> so they morphed it in to the European Community

> and then further into the European Union.

>

> So it's origins were deeply rooted in anti-war

> feelings and historic resentment (particularly in

> France) against the British. Hence de Gaule's oft

> repeated "Non".

>

> So not as idiotic as you might think.

Churchill proposed the Council of Europe in 1946 - you can read that speech online citing Aristide Briand as part of the inspiration- due to his work on the Locarno Treaties.

So yes, I think your interpretation is blinkered.

[alex_b]

Trinnydad Wrote:

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> Whatever the outcome of the current hiatus, the EU

> is unlikely to exist long term in its current

> form.

>

> The fringe countries ( read less prosperous) such

> as Poland, Hungary, Greece etc will be gradually

> squeezed out and the industrialised North-West

> founder nations (Germany, France, Belgium,

> Netherlands) will progress towards a tightly knit

> federal system. Likely dubbed the FSE - Federal

> States of Europe.

My understanding is that polling shows support for the EU at pretty much an all time high across the remaining 27 members.

[Ossito]

The original Treaty of Rome set a very clear ambition of ?ever closer union?. This was a founding principle established in 1957, so plenty of time for the UK to know what it was joining.

Even putting the detail of any downsides of how the EU operates aside, the trend towards regional collaboration is very clear. Everyone might not like the EU version of this, but I?m yet to understand what the strategic political vision and plan is for a relatively small country being outside any formalised trade blocs within this group-political trend.

[KidKruger]

Ossito - I fear strategic vision and plan plays second fiddle to short-termist ambitions of a very few people in a position to exploit the outcome (which they played a part in creating) and become even richer.

[TheCat]

Wow...bet you wish you were debating me now......

[Trinnydad]

zerkalo Wrote:

The EU in its

> current form, despite all the challenges it is

> facing, internal and external, is far more likely

> to continue long after the UK may be broken up

> following a Scottish independence.

Interesting point about Scotland. As a Scot who moved to England 50+ years ago to get a job, I would advise fellow Scots to think more carefully about independence. All it would take would be for England to declare that Scots need a work permit to work and live in England and that would scupper dreams of Scots independence. This is akin to what will happen for the English in the EU soon.

For centuries the Scots have had to migrate to get jobs - just like the Irish. My fellow countrymen in Scotland need to get real and see how their bread is buttered. Forget dreams of independence.

[Blah Blah]

People have migrated from all sorts of places to get jobs. Why do you think major cities lost half their population at various times? Industries rise and decline, Scotland is not unique in that respect.

If Scotland decides on independence, she can rejoin the huge trading bloc on her doorstep, and there are many advantages in her doing that. I too have strong connections to Scotland and as for scuppering dreams, leave voters just took away the dreams of generations of people who might want to live, work or study in any one of 27 other nations, so giving up access to little England for access to 27 other nations seems like a good trade off to me.

Let's see how her small farmers do without EU protections and subsidy shall we? Westminster never handed the subsidies over in full when we were in the EU anyway. That move for independence may come sooner than we all think.

[JohnL]

Trinnydad Wrote:

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> zerkalo Wrote:

> The EU in its

> > current form, despite all the challenges it is

> > facing, internal and external, is far more

> likely

> > to continue long after the UK may be broken up

> > following a Scottish independence.

>

> Interesting point about Scotland. As a Scot who

> moved to England 50+ years ago to get a job, I

> would advise fellow Scots to think more carefully

> about independence. All it would take would be for

> England to declare that Scots need a work permit

> to work and live in England and that would scupper

> dreams of Scots independence. This is akin to

> what will happen for the English in the EU soon.

>

> For centuries the Scots have had to migrate to get

> jobs - just like the Irish. My fellow countrymen

> in Scotland need to get real and see how their

> bread is buttered. Forget dreams of independence.

Yet if I'm right (not sure) we can work in the Republic of Ireland (but not get citizenship) with no permit and this will go on whatever happens with Brexit - and vice-versa.

It's called the Common Travel Area (CTA) and would almost certainly be there for Scotland too - some still talk about a Celtic Nation (Ireland+Scotland+Wales) maybe Cumbria and Cornwall too :)

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/common-travel-area-guidance

[Alan Medic]

This made me laugh.....

[zerkalo]

This sounds a bit like Project Fear to me - does anyone remember that? : )

Using a purely economic agrument to support this idea when previously such arguments have been flatly rejected in favour of something more pure and abstract (see Sovereignty) does not make much sense. Anyway, it appears that a majoriy would disagree with your view as "support for independence has hit record highs again, with Yes seeing 58 per cent support for the second time". https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/poll-shows-scottish-independence-support-surging-joint-record-levels-snp-set-majority-3070791

Trinnydad Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> zerkalo Wrote:

> The EU in its

> > current form, despite all the challenges it is

> > facing, internal and external, is far more

> likely

> > to continue long after the UK may be broken up

> > following a Scottish independence.

>

> Interesting point about Scotland. As a Scot who

> moved to England 50+ years ago to get a job, I

> would advise fellow Scots to think more carefully

> about independence. All it would take would be for

> England to declare that Scots need a work permit

> to work and live in England and that would scupper

> dreams of Scots independence. This is akin to

> what will happen for the English in the EU soon.

>

> For centuries the Scots have had to migrate to get

> jobs - just like the Irish. My fellow countrymen

> in Scotland need to get real and see how their

> bread is buttered. Forget dreams of independence.

[JohnL]

zerkalo Wrote:

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> Using a purely economic agrument to support this

> idea when previously such arguments have been

> flatly rejected in favour of something more pure

> and abstract (see Sovereignty) does not make much

> sense.

I don't get the push for sovereignty in the modern world - we all outgrew that years ago. It's almost a more innocent view of the world.

[Blah Blah]

Isolationism, protectionism and nationalism always emerge after severe economic crisis. This has been true for most of history. We are still in the trajectory of the 2008 financial crisis. And as always, you have a status quo struggling to hold onto their share of the profit (and increase it), while changing nothing for anyone else, hence the rise of populism. Populism loves vague notions and simplistic slogans around national pride and sovereign strength which is why historically a lot of wars have been started by populists.

[Trinnydad]

The EU's long standing ambition of an "ever-closer union" will no doubt continue and deliver a federal system They have achieved a common currency, agricultural policy, and common standards on virtually all commodities. They have the ECB and ECJ plus, plus, plus.

The only significant commonality that will prove to be more contentious in future will be the question of a common language. It is patently plain crazy to operate with 27 official languages in the EU parliament. That's 729 permutations.

Before Brexit, the obvious choice would have been English but this never happened because of inherent prejudice and resentment (as previously mentioned). It would certainly have gone against the grain of historic Francophone

ambitions.

With the Brits gone, it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

[malumbu]

English did become the defacto language. They all speak it so well. We are rubbish at learning other languages. Rule Britannia.

[Blah Blah]

Quite Malumbu. Was about to say exactly the same thing. I would also point out that being able to engage in one's own language is a display of how non federal the EU really is.

[Trinnydad]

malumbu Wrote:

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> English did become the defacto language. They all

> speak it so well. We are rubbish at learning

> other languages. Rule Britannia.

Sure, we all know that it became the de facto language but surely it would have been eminently sensible ( given the ever-closer union idea) to progress towards a common language through legislation such that it would be taught in all schools - just like it is in in already countries such as Netherlands, Denmark etc etc.

[Seabag]

Is Esperanto due for a comeback?

[wordsworth]

Seabag Wrote:

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> Is Esperanto due for a comeback?

Everybody in Europe is wondering why they ever bothered to learn English