EU Trade Talks Thread

[Sephiroth]

That?s a lot of words for

?This doesn?t sound good. We won?t be living in mud huts. But it sounds bad?

So go back to 2016. Put that on a referendum and win that

THEN you have a mandate

But this? This is some bullshit

Forget the goddamn U.K. Ireland alone is reason enough to not proceed. No mud huts involved there either but actual peace after decades. This whole thing is such bogus, Willy waving nonsense

[Sephiroth]

? If we're living in mud huts in 12 months, I'll concede it probably wasnt a price worth paying.?

That?ll be some comfort

[TheCat]

Heaven forbid of course, but let me know when the first bomb goes off in Belfast becuase of brexit....

[TheCat]

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> That?s a lot of words for

>

> ?This doesn?t sound good. We won?t be living in

> mud huts. But it sounds bad?

>

> So go back to 2016. Put that on a referendum and

> win that

>

> THEN you have a mandate

>

> But this? This is some bullshit

>

> Forget the goddamn U.K. Ireland alone is reason

> enough to not proceed. No mud huts involved there

> either but actual peace after decades. This whole

> thing is such bogus, Willy waving nonsense

That's a lot of words for, 'maybe I've exaggerated a bit on occasion'.....:)

[Sephiroth]

Once again

It isn?t claims from people like you versus remainers like us

It?s the governments own analysis. It?s business of all shades and shapes.

They are all saying what is going to happen.

So don?t project your insecurities onto people like me

[TheCat]

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Once again

>

> It isn?t claims from people like you versus

> remainers like us

>

> It?s the governments own analysis. It?s business

> of all shades and shapes.

>

> They are all saying what is going to happen.

>

> So don?t project your insecurities onto people

> like me

It's admirable how you place so much faith in this government. I'm confused though....as you often seem to rubbish nearly everything they say. I guess it's funny how you only love to quote 'government analyst's when agrees with your pre-existing view.....

[Sephiroth]

This is so tiresome

I place no faith in this government. They are rubbish and you should treat everything the say and do with scorn

They commissioned reports into the damage Brexit will do (not just no deal). Those reports Were Not Good. Very Bad. But those reports did not come from "remainers" like me

Yet this government has read those reports and are telling us to our faces that Britain will "prosper mightily"

you can look at Raab in TV studios spouting his nonsense and believe him if you want to

All I'm saying is that, away from nutters like Raab, Johnson et al (some of whom know full well the damage about to happen) independent government reports, and business and all sensible economists (not Minford) and all other sensible EU countries (speak to citizens in Ireland and Germany for example) - the overwhelming consensus is this if a Monumental FUCK UP.

Now you disagree - but your view is worthless in the scheme of things. No-one of any standing agrees with you. Your contrition should things not pan out (and "not panning out" does NOT = "living in mud huts") is of no value to anyone

I mention Argentina as an example of a once fantastically wealthy and independent country which was arrogant enough to throw it all away - does that mean that WILL happen with Brexit? Not necessarily - but it is Argentina-level-folly-adjacent

Are there bad faith actors who will profit financially from a Brexit? Yes. Is it that meaningful in big scene of things - probably not - but they will have lied to the UK population when it mattered (ie not now)

International Pariah? Strong words - but again, no-one is looking at UK behaviour and thinking "there is a country I can trust". Rollover deals to date are just that. What happened with Japan rollover deal (to take an example) when their deal with EU shifts?

All you have are empty words "ooh I don't want no deal - I'm not saying that's good"!.

Is it possible the the worst outcomes will be avoided? Most likely - but they remain a risk

And if they are avoided what will have been the factors in said avoidance. - it will be the very things leavers claim as their right. Sovereignty. Some sovereignty will have been ceded to avoid the worst outcomes

But this whole time, the government have continued to smile and say we will "prosper mightily" - which is obviously a lie of the most morally reprehensible magnitude

[Blah Blah]

Nice bit of deflection there TheCat, if a little rambling.

Where do you think the wealth of all those millionaires pushing Brexit, and especially a no deal one, comes from TheCat? Any ideas? Go and do some research and you will see how heavily invested in, and connected they are to the City, and big corporations. So no, these comments are not comparable to ridiculous claims about immigrants. One is based in fact, the other is not.

Even John Redwood made a speech in the commons a few weeks ago asking where the VAT and other tax cut announcements are, in the middle of a pandemic with soaring government borrowing no less. These hard Brexiters want the UK to become a tax haven. It is all they think about. And by the way, the EU knows that full well too, and that is shaping their hardball negotiations with us especially on things like state aid.

It is not childish to ask those who voted leave to cite one thing they expect to be better for them personally. That they all avoid answering the question is why we ask it. I would argue that it was childish to vote for something when they can't cite a single tangible benefit to them from it.

As for life being a little bit sh+ttier, it already is for a lot of families struggling to make ends meet. Many in bed and breakfast, too many needing to rely on food banks. Up to 3 million jobs depend on exports to the EU. Any contraction in the economy (and especially on top of this pandemic) is going to hit many of those who voted for Brexit hardest and I see no policy from this government that even begins to address any of those fundamental issues. And all you can do is make silly analogies about mud huts. Good grief!

[Blah Blah]

"But this whole time, the government have continued to smile and say we will "prosper mightily" - which is obviously a lie of the most morally reprehensible magnitude"

Yes Sephiroth, and it is this that angers me most. The lies, lies and more damn lies. They don't even hide it anymore.

[keano77]

...It is not childish to ask those who voted leave to cite one thing they expect to be better for them personally...

Here?s one.

I won?t be asked to vote in EU elections using some absurd voting system to elect some glorified councillor who didn?t stand a hope in hell of being elected to Parliament and who will waste our taxes introducing regulations similar to wonky bananas needing to be horse-shoe shaped.

Not that I ever remember voting in an EU election.

Here?s a smiley

🙂

[Blah Blah]

Keano, whether you vote for an MEP or not makes absolutely no difference to your life. And that you cite a debunked story about the shape of bananas really shows the sum of your understanding of anything the EU does. So try again. Something tangible that directly will make your life better now that we have left the EU.

[keano77]

You asked for one thing that I expect to be better for me personally and I did you the courtesy of providing you with one thing. I make no apology if you?re not happy with that example.

[Blah Blah]

Stop playing the fool Keano.

[keano77]

Ok

But lighten up folks. There?s nothing but doom and gloom above.

There?s an exciting future ahead. AI, genetic breakthroughs to revolutionise medicine, quantum computing, flying taxis etc etc

The EU is aware of all this of course which is why it?s crapping it?s pants that a liberated and unfettered UK will leave them standing.

Hence It?s insistence on a level play field.

[Sephiroth]

Amazing. 27 countries including the French , the Germans, the Irish. None of them can see this amazing sci fi future that you can keano. Why wouldn?t they want in as well?

Because you?ve just invented some fictional nonsense to justify U.K. trying to scam a new treaty

[TheCat]

Guys...I get you feel passionately about this issue. But surely you can see that statements like....

"can't cite a single tangible benefit to them from it"

and

"No-one of any standing agrees with you"

Are perfect examples of the lack of objectivity and hyperbole that pervades this thread.

There are many examples of Brexit benefits, and also many individuals 'of standing' who voted to Leave. And by blindly suggesting there isn't, it just diminishes the credibility of your other arguments which are often very reasonable.

When your criteria for someone of 'standing' is that they have to first have to disagree with Brexit, or your criteria for a 'tangible benefit' is something you already agree with....then its not really an objective discussion is it?

Sure there a cranks and bad reasons for Brexit, doesn't mean there aren't also reasonable commentators and decent reasons, but in my view unfort there's no argument, no matter how reasonable, that will sway you in anyway to consider or respect ANY people on the leave side. Which is indeed a shame in such a divided nation.

Please dont demand that I now list these benefits, or name these individuals...as its a totally pointless exercise (and has been done many times before of the past 4.5 years)...and as I've said before on these pages, you dont really WANT these examples to perhaps gain a different perspective, you only want to hear them so that you can tear them down and feel safe and smug in your echo chamber once again....

[Jules-and-Boo]

Lots of reasons here

https://briefingsforbritain.co.uk/ten-reasons-that-justify-the-uks-decision-to-leave-the-european-union/

Lots about remaining too I can search

[Sephiroth]

Those aren?t reasons. They are wild opinions that are largely baseless

[Trinnydad]

Here's a different view.

The French were defeated by the Germans in 1871, WW1 and WW2.

Having been humiliated these three times, the Frenchies and the Belgian's (who have been invaded countless times) decided it was better to cosy-up to the Jerries and become integrated into a pan-European project. First came the Common Market then the ECC and now the EU. At each stage there was further ensnarement and dependancey on the Franco-German diarchy and the bureaucracy of Brussels

Problem for the other nations has been that the Jerries (who have always wanted to control Europe) have now achieved this through economic dominance. The result is weaker countries like Greece, Italy, Portugal do as they are told and get screwed in the process.

The French and Germans hate us. This hatred is deep seated. Not least because we were never defeated and the English language is used throughout the world. Plus of course there was the historic envy arising from the size of the respective empires. In their view Britain deserves to be humbled.

The only way to avoid be humbled is to tell them to stick their "deal" and create our own independent future.

Freedom is preferable to humiliation and servitude!

[snowy]

It?s a different view, and an idiotic one.

[JohnL]

Trinnydad Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The French and Germans hate us. This hatred is

> deep seated. Not least because we were never

> defeated and the English language is used

> throughout the world. Plus of course there was the

> historic envy arising from the size of the

> respective empires. In their view Britain deserves

> to be humbled.

Defeated many times (England held territories in France from the Normans and others) and arguably lost in the big one - the 100 years war.

"The succession of conflicts known as the Hundred Years War ended on October 19th, 1453, when Bordeaux surrendered, leaving Calais as the last English possession in France"

This seems strangely modern

"King Henry VI of England began to go mad, England sank into civil war and France once again became the leading European power, entering a period of economic and demographic growth."

https://www.quora.com/Who-won-the-Hundred-Years-War

[Trinnydad]

snowy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It?s a different view, and an idiotic one.

I guess you are too young have been around in the immediate post WW2 period to appreciate the sentiments then. This snip from Wiki might help you understand the ant-war sentiment at the time......

""The ECSC was first proposed by French foreign minister Robert Schuman on 9 May 1950 as a way to prevent further war between France and Germany. He declared his aim was to "make war not only unthinkable but materially impossible"[3] which was to be achieved by regional integration, of which the ECSC was the first step.""

The ECSC morphed into the Common Market (a very sensible idea) however the dreamers in Brussels wanted to fast track towards political integration so they morphed it in to the European Community and then further into the European Union.

So it's origins were deeply rooted in anti-war feelings and historic resentment (particularly in France) against the British. Hence de Gaule's oft repeated "Non".

So not as idiotic as you might think.

[KidKruger]

Pride, hatred, resentment, and humiliation aside - we had a deal with the EU which was far better than anything we?ll ever get going forward.

We did that to ourselves, knowingly and on purpose.

Starting to hate England myself a bit too, now !

[malumbu]

Fortunately these views across Europe have generally died out. There is still a nationalist rump, even worse in this country. For heavens sake I have so many good friends and colleagues across Europe, and feel insulted by the sentiment posted above. Maybe its a wind up but reminds me of the National Front's position on Europe in the 70s. What is worrying is that this is the first time in my life that it is seen to be good to look down on the educated - not those who have been privileged but those state educated like myself who took full advantage on what the state provided. Sadly it is some of the privileged that stoked up this hatred. I'm so tempted to swear like at the beginning of Four Weddings and a Funeral. Aghhhhh

[nxjen]

What a load of absolute tosh! I am old enough to remember the understandable anti-war feeling after the war, not to overlook the strong anti German feeling there was in this country. But we overcame it to become a part of a peaceable successful trading and collaborative organisation. Why is it so bad that this grew out of anti-war feeling?

Trinnydad Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> snowy Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > It?s a different view, and an idiotic one.

>

> I guess you are too young have been around in the

> immediate post WW2 period to appreciate the

> sentiments then. This snip from Wiki might help

> you understand the ant-war sentiment at the

> time......

>

> ""The ECSC was first proposed by French foreign

> minister Robert Schuman on 9 May 1950 as a way to

> prevent further war between France and Germany. He

> declared his aim was to "make war not only

> unthinkable but materially impossible"[3] which

> was to be achieved by regional integration, of

> which the ECSC was the first step.""

>

> The ECSC morphed into the Common Market (a very

> sensible idea) however the dreamers in Brussels

> wanted to fast track towards political integration

> so they morphed it in to the European Community

> and then further into the European Union.

>

> So it's origins were deeply rooted in anti-war

> feelings and historic resentment (particularly in

> France) against the British. Hence de Gaule's oft

> repeated "Non".

>

> So not as idiotic as you might think.