EU Trade Talks Thread

[TheCat]

Blah blah....Your question is emblematic of many remainer attitudes, in my view. A discomfort with uncertainty. That's a fair position, but I believe that many remainers are risk aversse and prefer the certainty of the status quo.

[Seabag]

If ?one? is a believer

Ffs

[Sephiroth]

A feature of all cults is to vilify people who point out the emporer is wearing no cloths

From David Koresh to scientologists, they rely on intelligent people swallowing the koolaid

And make no mistake here - Cat, YOU are the mark. As a smart bloke you would be in the branch davidian compound, about 3 levels down from The Glorious Leader, but several levels above the great unwashed. You might have even harboured some doubts. But better to commit and follow the obvious lie than allow thought, doubt, reason to creep in

[TheCat]

Sephiroth Wrote:

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> Still wanging on about ?potential? upsides. 4

> years later. Just to divert from the upcoming

> shitshow

>

> For god sake man, have some self respect

>

> The whole thing is led by charlatans. Even if you

> wanted to believe you can surely see the people

> leading are just the worst.

>

> The only future is an indeterminate amount of

> years of fumbling and denying reality before

> rejoining because that is clearly the most

> advantageous position to be in.

>

> You don?t have to die on this hill of all hills

You're hilarious mate. The lack of objectivity in your comments is quite profound.

I've said many times that the people leading us are terrible. That doesn't change the brexit rationale. Even the most ardent brexiteer would always acknowledge that the disruption of the exit would be negative. It's not exactly a suprise....but if you want to dress it up as such to make yourself feel better, then okay.....

[TheCat]

Seabag Wrote:

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> If ?one? is a believer

>

> Ffs

I know right. How dare anyone have a view that's different to yours. The hide......

[Sephiroth]

? Even the most ardent brexiteer would always acknowledge that the disruption of the exit would be negative. It's not exactly a suprise?

Well now that just isn?t true is it. That may be what brexiters have pivoted to. But certainly to win a referendum that was very much not the message was it? You know all of the examples from all of the leaders as well as I do

So don?t make stuff up. I know you know I?m right. It bothers the living shite out of you. It?s an itch you can never scratch. I know you have even convinced yourself that isn?t true. But it is

[malumbu]

Great this is much more interesting.

Although I am now becoming an agitator, like someone who provokes a mass brawl but runs away.

[TheCat]

Sephiroth Wrote:

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> ? Even the most ardent brexiteer would always

> acknowledge that the disruption of the exit would

> be negative. It's not exactly a suprise?

>

> Well now that just isn?t true is it. That may be

> what brexiters have pivoted to. But certainly to

> win a referendum that was very much not the

> message was it? You know all of the examples from

> all of the leaders as well as I do

>

> So don?t make stuff up. I know you know I?m right.

> It bothers the living shite out of you. It?s an

> itch you can never scratch. I know you have even

> convinced yourself that isn?t true. But it is

Haha.....it's not me who's making stuff up. I can't be bothered trawling through old comments on this forum. But I know I made comments 4 years ago talking about the drawbacks of the disruption when we exit being a price worth paying.

[Sephiroth]

Yeah you might well have

But forgive me if I prick your delusions. The population of United Kingdom didn?t base their decision on what you might have thought or said. For most, they placed their trust in people, political leaders, who lied to them

Should they have thought about it as much as you? Yes the probably should have. Would the referendum have passed. Not a chance

Just because you are a deluded character doesn?t mean reality will bend to your will.

You are all in on a pair of twos. It?s a pair. You might actually win. But you are fool for betting on it. And you are criminal for assuming others will pay your debt

[TheCat]

"For most, they placed their trust in people, political leaders, who lied to them"

Well...'most' people are idiots. That is at least something we can probably agree on.

[Sephiroth]

That isn?t what I said.

I described why people voted the way they did in 2016 - which is the exact opposite of you saying ?most ardent brexiter said there would be problems?

But you view them as idiots which is... instructive

[Seabag]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Seabag Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > If ?one? is a believer

> >

> > Ffs

>

> I know right. How dare anyone have a view that's

> different to yours. The hide......

Oh dear! ?One? has missed the point

[Blah Blah]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Blah blah....Your question is emblematic of many

> remainer attitudes, in my view. A discomfort with

> uncertainty. That's a fair position, but I believe

> that many remainers are risk aversse and prefer

> the certainty of the status quo.

Sorry but that is a cop out and emblematic of leavers lack of interest in details. How long matters to business. 10,000 road haulage firms for example, small exporters reliant on EU trade. 44 percent of our export trade in fact. Will you be losing YOUR job in the short term? I am guessing not.

[Blah Blah]

Sephiroth Wrote:

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> That isn?t what I said.

>

> I described why people voted the way they did in

> 2016 - which is the exact opposite of you saying

> ?most ardent brexiter said there would be

> problems?

>

> But you view them as idiots which is...

> instructive

If we end up with no deal, there will be a conservative voter backlash, that is guaranteed. I personally know quite a few conservative voters that voted leave but expected there to be a trade deal, so that their small businesses could carry on trading. Anecdotal I know but they will have a lot to say if nothing is sorted.

[Sephiroth]

I?ve said before that the poll tax had a mandate until it suddenly didn?t.

This is that times 100. I do t think the backlash will comprise everyone saying ?I was wrong?. But it will be chaotic and brutal. Which is more than the country needs

Ah but where are the leaders to lead? Nowhere. Absolutely nowhere

[Seabag]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Blah blah....Your question is emblematic of many

> remainer attitudes, in my view. A discomfort with

> uncertainty. That's a fair position, but I believe

> that many remainers are risk aversse and prefer

> the certainty of the status quo.

Tell me what you do to earn your crust?

I don?t need to know exactly where you work, just an indication of where you garner income?

[TheCat]

Seabag Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> TheCat Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Blah blah....Your question is emblematic of

> many

> > remainer attitudes, in my view. A discomfort

> with

> > uncertainty. That's a fair position, but I

> believe

> > that many remainers are risk aversse and prefer

> > the certainty of the status quo.

>

>

> Tell me what you do to earn your crust?

>

> I don?t need to know exactly where you work, just

> an indication of where you garner income?

Why does what I do influence your view of my opinions?

Judge my comments on their merits....or lack thereof if you think I'm talking rubbish. But whether I'm a pimp or a prime minister is totally irrelevant.

[Sephiroth]

Bit defensive innit?

[Seabag]

Sephiroth Wrote:

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> Bit defensive innit?

Totes!

Anyways, I?ll go on. It?s (The Cat)interesting you?re talking about risk and people being ?risk averse? in your previous post, so I wonder what you do in your life that makes ?risk? an attractive or interesting attribute of this Brexit situation that?s upon us.

I didn?t vote the way I did because I?m fundamentally risk averse, I take calculated risked in my business week in week out as it goes. I voted because it made more sense to stay in the EU.

[malumbu]

Voting with your head not your heart. Not very British is it? There are many things awful about the EU but 4 1/2 years later it is still an awful decision.

[Blah Blah]

This is what typifies everything that is wrong with a certain Brexit view. Those who think a hit is fine, but won't say how long that can be expected to be, and then go on about risk aversion when the kinds of jobs at risk are not their job. There are areas that rely heavily on UK exports for local jobs. No deal will be an exercise in self harm that will hurt those regions hardest. There is no B plan to save any of them. The country is run by hedge fund managers who believe in the myth of trickle down economics while avoiding tax in offshore accounts.

[TheCat]

Blah Blah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> This is what typifies everything that is wrong

> with a certain Brexit view. Those who think a hit

> is fine, but won't say how long that can be

> expected to be, and then go on about risk aversion

> when the kinds of jobs at risk are not their job.

> There are areas that rely heavily on UK exports

> for local jobs. No deal will be an exercise in

> self harm that will hurt those regions hardest.

> There is no B plan to save any of them. The

> country is run by hedge fund managers who believe

> in the myth of trickle down economics while

> avoiding tax in offshore accounts.

If the economic fallout is quite as apocalyptic as many remainers seem to think it will be then every section of the economy and all jobs are at risk. In anycase, I am EU immigrant, and when voting leave, I obviously took the risk that I might be kicked out of the country.....is that level of personal risk enough for you?

It's interesting that you rubbish the concept of being risk averse, but then in the same breath demand that you be given certainty about 'how long that be expected'. Such a transition is largely unprecedented, no one can know the exact impact.

Most people who voted for brexit, voted on the "principle' of sovereignty. Voting on principle is a valid rationale in my book, and doesn't require a detailed multifactor economic model. But on balance one would expect that many leave voters felt that shorter term disruption was a risk worth taking to align with principles they placed value on. Seemingly, you (and most other remainers on here) disagree, and don't believe those risks are a price worth paying. That's a fair position to take, but hence why I think 'risk version' plays a role here.

[Sephiroth]

?

If the economic fallout is quite as apocalyptic as many remainers seem to think it will be then every section of the economy and all jobs are at risk. ?

Don?t take remainers word for it. Government?s own analysis will do just fine

Eu countries have sovereignty

U.K. will have to give parts of it?s sovereignty with every new trade deal they do

As a principle it is the most deluded and self-defeating in history

[JohnL]

Blah Blah Wrote:

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> Define 'short term'. Months, years, decades, what?

Didn't Mogg say 50 years - is that OK

I shouldn't comment on 50 years as I'll be 100 and I have no children but it's a long time to wait for something that may not come.

[Seabag]

I?m suspicious of the whole sovereignty ?tool? because in many ways it?s ambiguous, fluid and it?s used like a worm on a hook by this government.

And it depends what you intend to do with it, and how you define it that really matters. There?s an element of concession in every WTO deal that stymies the ?sovereignty? of the country that?s negotiating, and like the EU the WTO are tough on what they want, and what ever is achieved comes at a cost. That cost is often behavioural, in manner and in business, reigning in all signatories of any agreements.

It depends what you?re also telegraphing with your desire for sovereignty too, and I suspect the EU are wary of Johnson and his intentions with it. He?s proven untrustworthy, he?s a quantified liar. Then add to that the ?Britain Trump? rep he?s garnered and it?s not to difficult looking forwards to see the misuse or leaning heavily on the laws, rules and guidelines from Johnson. So why give yourselves the headache by conceding too much. Plus look at the nonsense and quite frankly embarrassing ?We?ll send in gunships? slashed across the front page of the Hate Mail today. I cringe, and I?m pretty sure there?s an element of joy in certain quarters. It?s tragic how we must be seen from the outside. I?d say laughable, but it?s really not funny in any way.

The lie about fishing is transparent. This country barely knows about the fish that comes from these waters. It?s all about an illusory line drawn around ?our sovereign waters? that acts as a token appeasement to the tub thumpers. Another lie, another layer of deception to hide the great failings of this government?s negotiations.

Saudi Arabia is a sovereign state, its isolation by way of human rights is notable and horrible. It buys its respect. I suspect Johnson quite fancies some of that behaviour as an asset to prop up his populist government. The EU are rightly aware of it too.